Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dingding, Jan 26, 2010.
There is no guarantee that there isn't lots of land to your south for barb spawning.
Wow, this has been one of the biggest gambit opening on Deity i have seen.
Here are some of the glaring problems i see:
1. At 2200 BC, you just started building the first settler with only 3 improved tiles and no BW. A Deity Creative William can easily take over most of the land including the Gems north of you by the time you have your first settler. And that is pretty much game over.
2. Very low hammers, no fogbusting warriors, no settler escorts unless you want to sacrifice some trees for warriors. This was already pointed out, a couple of barb archer can defeat you now.
With ample food, BW and fast workers (can enter Forrest and chop at the same turn), you can get 2 blocking settlers out by 2400BC this game and have 3 cities working cottages to keep economy afloat.
In summary, a food rich capital must serve as the primary REX engine this early, while this creative opening might work on lower levels, I would not recommend a single-minded effort of pursing a super early "SE" here.
I didn't go for conquest because I can't handle that on deity yet.
Start to Finish
Expanded very aggressively after settling in place. Lost lib badly to Willem as finances were very bad. I shouldn't have settled 9 for culture, should have stuck w/ 6 as we have a couple worthy GPP sites. Oh well.
Diplo finally broke down 5 turns before victory, so I was throwing workers and units from non-culture cities to the wolves to buy the last 3 turns . Pacal was refused all kinds of requests because he was alex's vassal until he broke free. That screwed me up a lot.
And then there was willem's culture. I thought I would lose, but I did a pop starve in the capitol at the 11th hour to get one final artist, allowing my #3 city to go legendary...on the exact same turn as him.
I don't know what's worse, my crappy play or the fact that the above counts as a win. A deity win that doesn't even get me enough score points for Augustus Ceaser . That's what I get for playing sloppy.
LOL, Pacal conquers one of your non-culture cities, then given the choice of pillaging a gem mine, an iron mine, or a crappy hill mine outside any BFC (well actually in his own BFC now!) No surprises he sends his tanks to the latter. What is the AI thinking there?
What you didn't see is that I stuck a fast worker on that tile to bait it there.
Hehe, of course, I would expect no less!
Even so you have to despair at the hapless AI. "We are within attack range of a city going legendary next turn, defended by a pathetically obsolete garrison. Saddle up people - let's raze that mother! ...... But wait, what's this, an undefended worker, 60 free hammers? What do you say? A *FAST* worker!!?? That decides it - turn right at the lake sergeant!
TheMeInTeam, it's a dice roll if two civs win (achieve a victory condition) at the same turn, so you could have just lost as well, if you have an auto save try to auto-explore w/ some unit and see...
I'm well aware that this nail biter ALSO came down to a coin-flip. It's probably the "least deserved deity win ever, excepting the Apostolic Palace" .
ah, but TMIT you play for excitement am i right? whats more exciting than deciding the fate of the last 5 hours by a coin flip?
hmmm, perhaps a dice roll?
I recommend re-evaluating your reasoning for choosing this path.
You've essentially made a 2nd mistake to cover up the 1st one. The 1st mistake was trying to get the Oracle. The 2nd one was thinking that the difference between Great Scientist and Great Prophet was big enough to sacrifice 3 good tiles to run specialists.
In reality, the +2 GPP from the Oracle is strong because you don't have to assign any people to earn the GPP--you get them for free. But once you use specialists to increase your GPP rate, you always need to consider the cost of assigning those specialists. Since you have a wonder already, the extra specialists that you assign provide relatively little benefit (since you already get +2 GPP for free), but the cost of running specialists at this point of the game still remains high.
1st, tile outputs get better as the game progresses along the tech tree. At the very beginning, 3-yield tiles are good, as long as they don't cost you worker turns to get them, and as long as you have enough special tiles to carry the burden.
2nd, hammers and food are very strong at this early point of the game. You essentially sacrificed hammers and food for specialists. The specialists don't make up for the lost hammers and food. This is because you need the hammers and food for more cities. After you run out of expansion capacity (either due to lack of room or increased maintenance), only then do specialists start to overtake normal hammer/food tiles in terms of value.
But you spent more beakers than necessary trying to get the Oracle, that you could have used to get BW.
Another thing I noticed is that in your hurry to grab the Oracle, you skipped AH and instead built a Farm on the Cow tile. I consider that a waste of worker turns. You could have used the worker turns to chop a forest instead--that is, if you had BW at the time.
Arti, you keep alluding to the +2, however you DO realize that this leader gives him double. Thus he can afford to do what may seem a little out-of-line moves, but still come out ahead.
To be honest, if I went oracle here, it would be pretty hard not to resist the Metal-Casting line, even ignoring hindsight that we have coast so close. I would have used the extra speed of the UU to get a second master-chopper, and then double-chopped the forge. He's got the extra food to support the Eng with over-kill even still.
That 120 hammer investment could net you a 500 hammer killer-wonder. The speed of Phillo GPs could even get you two shots as a 60/40 favourite here.
Two things I should mention:
1) I’ve got 3 warriors at total: one in capital, one at the first city’s location and the last one at the second city’s. I’m sorry I didn’t put a better shot to display this.
2) The type of map (Continents) and the geopolitics (only one neighbor) are recommended to be taken into consideration. That explains a lot. Many of my decisions are based on it.
About barbarians, to shyuhe:
As I settled down my first city at turn 0, I noticed that the width of the continent at this latitude is only 6 tiles.
My experience with this type of map (Continents) indicated the continent would be even narrower to the south and I didn’t expect a deep tundra and ice area, where barbarians are crazy.
My cap expands at turn 43 and reveals the map to the south: I can already see the southern end of the continent. I’m happy that I didn’t underestimate the barbarian threat.
PS. the fast worker is in the south fog busting LOL
About warriors, to Duckweed, shyuhe and ABCF:
In fact a 6-pop capital can rush a warrior within 1 turn if necessary. Thanks to an early religion, Delhi expanded the cultural border at turn 43. That means if I see more than 2 barbarians are coming, I can rush 2-3 warriors before they reach Delhi.
I could have done better to reinforce my defense if I hadn’t chosen this strategy. Luckily the barbarians didn’t harass a lot as predicted.
About SE, to ABigCivFan:
In case that you didn’t notice, I started a swift between SE and FE once I finished BW. The rhythm of change will be like: SE=> GP is born=>Slavery=>whipping=>whipping=>whipping=>Cast System SE=> GP born=>… The production is OK and I’ll mix up with some CE when pottery is complete.
Another thing we may easily ignore: I’m obliged to run some SE from time to time to generate GSP. I need 2 GS in my first 3 GP (one for academy, one for Philosophy). I’ve missed the first one (I’ve got a GP) and I hope to have a better luck next time.
Congratulations for the victory! You’re really a big fan of Culture victory!
Since you’ve achieved so many culture victories, so why not try some other victories, like a conquest one? I don’t think it will be too difficult for you.
About REX, to RRRaskolnikov (beautiful city Grenoble)
No EP advantage against Willem until turn 50. He’s certainly my only neighbor. I didn’t do more exploration with my warriors because it’s more important to guard the first/second city location.
Well I’d like to explain the REX with this:
Look, I estimate Willem’s BFC is 13-15 tiles north and the jungle is 7-8 tiles deep. It’s apparently little possible, on Deity, to occupy the northern part of the jungle, which is too near to Willem. Hence I don’t need to rush my first settles to go deep into the forest and find some Dutch cities.
My Strategy is only to try to get the southern part of the jungle. 2 is a good place with 2 gems, there is also possibility to build a city in 3 to block Willem but it’s not sure right now.
Is it possible that Willem take over my gems city? Well, unlikely IMO. Normally AI prefers RCP. I suppose Willem will have a better expansion environment to the north, rather than start a second ring of city in the jungle. However my settles will be rushed quickly to settle down there.
Anyway if the blocking strategy is successful, which means I can probably have 5-6 cities, I’ll REX at around turn 80 when IW is finished.
A good strategy is not trying to do everything as quickly as possible, but making a good medium between cost and return. On a typical ideal map for REX, there are lots of productive and easy-working tiles– corn, cow, FP, gold, etc – and they can easily pay back. In many cases, a REX seems harmless because you can even destroy your early economy by overexpansion and rebuild it later by cottages, GS bulb and most importantly, tech trade.
Apparently it’s hardly the case in this map: jungle tiles hard to exploit; very little tech trade possibility. If I can ensure my territory with 2 or 3 blocking cities, I prefer to slow down the expansion and wait for IW – that’s when my jungle city can pay back – and then I would say to myself: “Now why not a second expansion, a rapid one.”
Thank you for your opinion. I’m sorry I didn’t make it clearer in my previous posts. About the two mistakes you indicated:
1) Took Oracle and postponed BW:
That has postponed my 1st settler by 15 turns (t35 => t50) and the 2nd one by 15 turns (t45 => t60). Loss of a chance for REX which I think is not needed in this game (as I explained above).
In short term, Oracle and CoL enables the CS, which helps me a great deal to beeline IW – if I say BW has been postponed because of the Oracle, I’ll obtain IW at the same time I should have got it if I hadn’t chosen Oracle.
In medium and long run, CoL leads to Philosophy (and Pacifism), which I can bulb after Maths and Alphabet. By building the Oracle,
1) I have saved 600 beakers (for CoL) and more importantly, a lot of time. Time is crucial:
Time = GP = Tech = Chance to trade tech = Chance to conquest
2) Philosophy brings Pacifism. Early Pacifism + Philosophic = 5, 6 GP before Liber, rather than 3 in a normal game. Another time, GP=conquest
3) As GS bulbs Philosophy, I can bulb Optics directly. (Philo>Optics in the bulbing list)
4) Philosophy blocks the Liber beeline of the other AIs.
5) An early Academy + a GP in the capital are super powerful.
I mean, we can’t evaluate the Oracle if we don’t have a farer sight: the return is long-term rather than short-term. Obviously, I can’t explain the long-term performance of the Oracle, my game is only at turn 50.
About the micro operation, maybe we can think in a simpler way, we have two options here:
1) Not to change the civic. Build settler with all the pops on the tiles.
At turn 51, settler comes up. Delhi pop = 6: production 5F 11H 3G
At turn 55, BW finished.
2) To change to CS. Build settler with 3 pops on tiles and 3 scientists.
At turn 50, a GP born and settle down in Delhi. Unlock the pop restriction in Delhi.
At turn 51, BW finished, Delhi grows to 7 pop, change to Slavery, whip 2 pops for the settler.
At turn 52, settler is built. Delhi pop = 5: production 7F 10H 8G. In addition, Fast Worker chopping = 6.67H/turn.
1 turn and 1 pop bring an additional output of 2F 5.67H 5G PER TURN and an acceleration of research (3*3*6=54 beakers). Maybe it’s a simpler calculation and evaluation.
About the Metal Casting line, to obsolete:
The tech tree is good and perhaps enables the best speed to contact the other continent.
But in my humble opinion, I feel Oracle=>MC is too costly and risky: it needs three more techs (BW+Wheel+Pottery). Without gold/silver/gem as I’m, I can’t finish it before around turn 60. I think the possibility to get it is below 30%. Then I'll have another dice roll on the birth of GI: twice 60/40. I may be stuck in a “25%, all or nothing” situation.
Contact the other continent is just a means but not the propose: all I need is tech trade. Imagine if I miss the CoL-Philosophy line, I doubt whether I have something valuable to trade with: maybe Compass and Optics only. I can get hardly a middle-ages tech (CS, Feudalism or something) with them. A first-found Philo however, is such a treasure.
This is precisely why I said I would be pretty hard-pressed, and not "I'm going to always go for it here"
Interesting game! I especially like to see your thoughts/analysis as usually all we get are screenshots and that doesn't necessarily help to make decisions. With your game, I can put myself in your shoes and compare what I might have done.
Don't be discouraged if you don't play the game exactly as a "deity player" would do it around here. Some people assume you're a n00b until you post 4000 saved game files which they can check for any sign of cheating. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, especially if you give a thoughtful analysis. I will be all the more interested if it is NOT something I would have done on this map.
tx you for the deep reply!
You are quite right about that, though I think it's possible for deity Willem to occupy your side by turn 100... maybe I am just paranoid (my goal for 1st settler is around t35 in deity... if I am late compared to that, I start to panic ). I wonder if AIs change their settling pattern if they met an opponent (ie nobody => I fill my first ring before going to the second, I met someone => screw rings, expand in the direction of the opponent - typical Ragnar behaviour, but maybe that's my paranoia), maybe some code readers know something about that?
I am a big fan of farms as well, but in isolation a strong cottage cap can help to diminush the "no trade available" factor... one more reason to follow your game
Last: Grenoble is ****** compared to Bordeaux (no, I am not talking about foot)... and no wine producers in the area
This is a good read. Thank you dingding. Obviously you are a great master. You have some of our best players here second guessing you moves. I assume you have this game under control. You keep hinting that a tech lead will give you a chance to conquer. I think Willem's days are numbered...
yes, this is one of the more interesting threads i've read in quite a while, especially as some one who is stuck in the netherworld between immortal and deity.
now you have the burdensome duty of making a series of it, already got the name, dingding explains it all. ha
Separate names with a comma.