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Dingding’s Deity Challenge – Gandhi: India’s Conquest

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dingding, Jan 26, 2010.

  1. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

    Joined:
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    1,711
    I'll quote your earlier post:

    Here is what I meant when I said "mistake":

    When considering the decision to go for the Oracle, your Cost and Risk should be combined in the case of a failure. For example, let's use the %s you listed above:

    Success
    probability: 80%
    cost: 1st and 2nd settlers are delayed by 15 turns
    gain: research and GPP are improved

    Failure
    probability: 20%
    cost: 1st and 2nd settlers are delayed by 15 turns
    gain: none


    The "Failure" bracket is a big liability here. Clearly, in that 20% bracket the net result is negative.

    For the "Success" bracket, sure you have some compensation with faster research and GPP, but even simple observation shows that by delaying AH and BW you suffer in this situation. Does the positive effect cancel out the negative? Maybe, but the risk in the Success bracket is still significant, since you have sacrificed many early hammers to get there.

    All in all, you stand to lose a lot for the 20% chance of failure in exchange for a questionable gain for the 80% chance of success.


    It's a great prize if he gets the Oracle, I'll admit, but my point is that it will cost him whether he succeeds or fails (see my comments above).

    I don't deny the positives in the case of success. But the chance of failure is not trivial, and this will open up the possiblity of throwing away a very good game had a different plan been taken.
     
  2. ABigCivFan

    ABigCivFan Emperor

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    DingDing, thanks for you explanation of your thought process.

    Maybe you have won this game already, but this early situation looks very bad to me.

    * You are 6 turns away from BW, 13 turns away from 1st settler, only way to hurry this is whipping which hurts your capital a lot; assuming Deity William wont settler the 2 Gems spot near his border @ 2200BC is very questionable, he already has the whole jungle explored.

    * 2200 BC, capital working 2.25 improved tile and the only fast worker is fog busting?? The lost efficiency and production is too great this early. also whipping emergency warriors will hurt you a lot.

    I also played some turns.

    Spoiler :


    675BC: 5 cities, 2 more settlers on the way. settled the 2 northern blocking cities by ~2400BC. Note I settled the Gem city north of the Gems to ensure I keep it from Creative William.

    4th city on river next to capital to work cow and share corn/wheat for settler/worker production

    5th city work cow/copper for worker/fish boat production

    Tech: Ag-BW-AH-Wheel-Pottery(early cottage)-writing-IW(work Gem)-Fishing---Monarchy (HR)-Mono(OR)-Sailing-Math-Cur-COL-CS

    No commerce resource in capital, Pottery/writing was essential for REXing.
    IW for Gems and clear jungle.
    No happy resources, Monarchy was essential for up happy cap.
    No tech trading with William, all self research. working cottages early.



    675BC: Capital

    Academy built, working 2 cottages and running 2 scientists.



    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    500BC: William is an agressive settler, he sends his settler by boat deep in to my territory, I had a settler there for a few turns and only settled my city after he lands.



    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    250BC: 9 cities settled, 5 on river, more Fast worker in queue. Now with this prime green land, there are many choices to grow the empire, things will take off quickly once Cur/COL/CS are in.



     
  3. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    Funny how we are playing India and the map is an almost perfect match for the indian sub-continent. Its one reason why these strats are working.
     
  4. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    Hmm no save. But this screenshot says it all. run 3 GS this stage of the game. No settler and probably only 1 worker that has nothing to do because you don't have BW. Cow farmed :lol:. Only a few warriors turn 45. Amazing that you aren't dead yet.
     
  5. ABigCivFan

    ABigCivFan Emperor

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    DingDing, do you have any updates on the game? I am interested in seeing how this plays out.

    Some of the posters here have played many Deity games, and we all have learned our lessons of under Rexing in the opening game. We can never assume the Deity AIs will expand away but not toward us. William even tries to ferry his settlers to my back yard (since I kept my OB with him for trade routes).

    Everyone wants to see a "different" game, but what baffles a lot of the posters here is that you were handed a kick ass REX capital, but instead of "play to the map", you chose to "play to the traits" while sacrificing several fundamental aspects of the land grabbing phase. It is prob ok if you are experimenting with this strategy on Monarch, but on Deity, most people will deem this as too risky.
     
  6. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    I did a little quick test on this map just now neverthe-less.

    I got MC alright, but then I got the nasty message that some lucky bastard built the Pyramids when I needed 7 more turns to go for my GE. Apparently this guy completed it in 1480 BC IIRC.

    I was a bit sloppy as this was more of a quick sample run, so I could have eeked out an extra turn perhaps. Perhaps... maybe I could have done even more, but by doing so I would have paid more expenses elsewhere. This would include greater priest pollution, etc. The way I had it set up was I got the entire forge completed in the same turn the oracle was established. So that's as close to the 60% mark as you can get there. It's impossible to be any cleaner than that, unless you are running on the second-time-around.

    Also, I had another city for axes going during that time, copper hooked up, etc.. etc.. And I had some bad luck earlier too, with my warriors never being able to defend even when fully fortified on a forrested hill for fog-busting! Ughh. That's how it goes sometimes.

    Anyhow, nothing new here that wasn't unexpected. Actually, I was surprised I came so close to the gambit without any commerce.
     
  7. jihe

    jihe Prince

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    The MC pyramid gambit has like a 0.0001 chance of success on diety, even if you are philosophical, the GE just arrives too late, pyramid regularly goes in the 1600's BC.
     
  8. Udey1

    Udey1 Prince

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    I'm lurking. Go farmed cows! Lucky for you dingding you have a close neighbor and are on a penninsula. Your "unconventional" style would get me killed by barbs in almost all my deity games.

    P.S. has anyone sent a WB out yet? I am curious about this map.
     
  9. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    0.0001 ? And how did you calculate those figures exactly.

    I really ought to go and buy a bunch of lottery tickets in that case, since I most definitely am the luckiest player in the WORLD.
     
  10. Udey1

    Udey1 Prince

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    @obs,

    I've seen you doing that several times during my lurks. I tend to go a bit wonder heavy too since usually im fail golding them anyway. Any pointers for working O M P? Two games ago my churchill went GW, Oracle, AP, ToA and GLib @1AD(so wonders sure) but i am not so sure about gambiting it (Pyramids) without a Philo leader.
     
  11. vanatteveldt

    vanatteveldt Emperor

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    @DingDing
    I just wanted to say that I admire your playstyle, it goes quite contrary to 'received wisdom' on these boards (and I am not a deity player so I won't judge). I can imagine it going horribly wrong in most cases, but I would like to see it play out. Don't be discouraged from the somewhat ridiculing comments here (even though I think civfanatics is one of the nicest places on the Internet, esp. compared to some other forums...). I think it is quite brave to join / come out of the lurk with a deity game and then do "silly" things like farming cows and running three specialists before your first settler!


    [@obsolete: don't forget that people used to ridicule the WE/SSE before you conclusively showed that it is possible with (sometimes insane) focus on the straight and narrow even at the highest level...]
     
  12. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    Udey, from reading your post I suspect this was not deity. I'm not sure how deep to go into that since this is a deity thread and I don't want to de-rail or de-value the OP's own thread.

    However, I did quickly run another test this evening. I threw in a gold resource with WB. I also traded off fidelity a little bit to increase GPPs. This put us at exactly a 50/50 proposition to hit the Eng at 1600 BC.


    P.S.

    1600 BC = Won Mids race for us on this map.
     
  13. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Thank you guys for your support (to zizzeus in particular, it turned out so soon that you’re god-d*mn right:)) and critiques – for me, critiques are some kind of support though.

    I hadn’t predicted this game would raise so much discussion as it’s a “typical Gandhi” game for me. I’ve been enjoying this kind of discussion but I’m telling myself that I’m not here to prove anybody wrong. I’m not going to say “my way is the best” either. Maybe more importantly, my aim is to show that this playstyle is workable, especially to those who didn’t know it before.

    Civ is interesting for the reason that we’re purely limited by the imagination and the laws of Civilopedia. I don’t know if my strategy in this game is the optimum one – which usually doesn’t exist though – but after a number of Deity wins, I realized that an interesting (and workable, of course) play is usually more important than an “optimum” one.

    And you guys (especially TMIT and ABCF) make me believe my game is interesting and not bad.

    About the probability of a project, to Artichoker:
    Spoiler :
    If it’s only the 80/20 probability thing that disturbs you, the explanation will be much easier.

    I’ve tried some Deity conquest NO S/L games and won several of them, so I have a lot of experience about how to evaluate the risk and return. As you know, sh*t happens in Civ: you may lose a 99.99% battle or win a 0.01% one. Does it mean that I would never dare to launch a war because I may, despite all, lose a 99.99% battle, or that I should DoW a neighbor with only initial warrior because I can capture his capital with a probability of 0.01%? Obviously not.

    With the experience of NO SL Deity games, I find if a plan works at a probability of 80%+ in Deity, it’s already a nice one: it’s not far more dangerous than an early dice-roll DoW by a neighbor. And you can consider carrying it out.

    If a plan seems workable at 80%+ in Deity and it’s a DIFFERENT one, I strongly recommend that you give a try. I mean if you lose due to it, please note that it’s just a game; but if you win it, you may find a totally different way of thinking and playing.

    Risk exists everywhere, and 20% of failure is acceptable in Deity. I admit the luck effect in Deity and in this game, but I don’t think people should criticize too much the 80% thing and ignore other things which are far more valuable.

    To Dirk1302:
    Spoiler :
    More analysis and explanations about the micro, defense, strategy, etc are in the previous posts. How this “disastrous opening” works is in the following posts.

    If you don’t want to be convinced, I recommend that you replay this game and prove me wrong. The game of ABCF is good but not that good to make me change my mind.

    To obsolete:
    Spoiler :

    Sorry I misunderstood your post. I thought you meant to generate a GE and bulb Machanery quickly.

    If you meant a GE=>Pyramid line, I can’t see much of probability to succeed.

    To Udey1 :
    Spoiler :
    Snacks are good in moderation.
     
  14. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    To ABigCivFan:

    Thank you very much for the play! That allows me to compare directly my game with yours.

    Later I’ll release the screenshot of my game at around 675BC. It seems to me that at the moment, my economy ≈ yours, my Tech > your tech, my GP = 3 x yours, my cities + 1 = your cities.

    The later game is not very comparable because you have more cities than I do. That’s a good topic “How many cities do I need” and I’ll explain it later. It strikes to me that if you keep the city number, we’ll find the difference of the Oracle from around 400BC.

    I appreciate your expansion skill, but as how to play is linked to what you want, I wanna know:
    1) How do you want to win? Conquest, culture or space?
    2) Do you want to contact the other continent yourself or you leave them to contact you?

    In case you haven’t notice:
    Spoiler :
    As I see it, to research Monarchy and Mono is a waste of beaker, because Fishing, Monotheism, Alphabet and Monarchy are the only four early techs that can be traded in a dual situation.
    About REX:

    REX is the most common way to win a Deity game, because there are two equations:
    1) Time=Victory
    2) Land=Victory
    And REX fulfills the both: it saves some time and grabs more land.

    This game is particular because, despite all expansion pressure that Willem puts onto me, I can still get 5,6 cities. I’ve won some Deity Conquest victories with 4-6 cities and read some battle reports like this, so I don’t think it’s catastrophic.

    The best challenge in this game, which is ignored by most of readers, is how to maximize the PHI + SE combo at the early game and get rid of the no-tech-trade messy situation.

    I do think in CFC people tend to play a REX and very often they’ve got a map where they can grab 8+ cities. That’s a good practice for REX-loving peacemongers but personally I doubt if that would make people ignore the other possibilities of opening. I also suppose people may feel less free when they play in a much more crowded map like Pangaea.
     
  15. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Let's continue!

    After BW I run for wheel. That’s a mistake that I should have avoided: I should have go directly to AH to exploit cow. It’s not a dramatic disaster however. Tech: Wheel=>AH=>Pottery=>IW

    Spoiler :
    My worker is giving 6.67H of output by chopping. Exploiting cow spends 4 turns and gives an extra output of 2H. So work on the cow needs 6.67*4/2 = 13 turns to pay back. Conclusion: If I went for AH, I might have not exploited the cow as first: I need immediate hammers for my 2nd settler rather than wait 13 turns.

    Turn 54:
    Bombay set up. Delhi is struggling against an undead bar.
    Spoiler :

    Turn 56 and 57:
    Change back to CS. Bombay draft an artist to expand, and Delhi needs two scientists before the Great Prophet Point pollutes too much. I’ve missed the first GS, if I missed the second one, that’s too unfortunate.

    A 2nd settler is being built. Two FW chops, giving 13H per turn.
    Spoiler :

    Turn 62:
    Second settler built and set to settle down at the two gems’ point. I can see Willem up there. My settler is just in time.
    Spoiler :
    Maybe you have noticed that Delhi is building a temple. Temples are very handy for a SPI leader (40:hammers: only) and it’s the only way to make happiness at the early stage. Though Monarchy can solve the happiness problem and it’s one of several techs that can be traded in a dual, I can certainly not obtain it before 500BC.

    Turn 67:
    A GS is born and builds an academy in Dehli.

    Turn 69:
    Change to Slavery.
     
  16. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Turn 70:
    AH+Wheel+Pottery finished, IW on research. Library is whipped in Delhi and to make the game sound more ridiculous, Delhi continues to turn two guys into scientists and builds another settler.
    Spoiler :

    Turn 79:
    IW finished. 3rd settler is built. Research goes to Alphabet.

    Next I need Alphabet and Maths to unlock the bulbing of Philosophy. I take the Alphabet at first.

    It’ll not be a difficult choice between Alphabet and Maths if Willem goes to Alphabet, which I can trade with CoL. But I can see he’s researching Calendar (BTW which means he’s got some calendar luxury resources and makes Monarchy even less interesting for me), and he probably goes to Currency as he’s a Economic AI leader (with a priority of 5 to research an economic tech), it will probably take more than 20 turns before he finishes Alphabet. But note that I can finish the both myself within 20 turns.

    Alphabet allows a convert from hammer to beaker, and a begging for Fishing from Willem, which saves me 50 beakers and give me 10 turns of safety 8,9 turns earlier. Maths improves the chopping efficiency by 50% means I’ll gain 3.33 H per turn more in about 8,9 turns. Alphabet seems a little bit more beneficial to me.

    Spoiler :
    I think even if Willem goes for Alphabet next to Calendar, I may waste some beakers and some time but it’s not the end of the world: well noted that human player is always the loser in a single tech trade. If I trade CoL to him for Alphabet, we should think about the cost to give gift to our main enemy.

    Turn 87:
    First General appears on the other continent. Good news.
    As three of the four founded religions are here, it will be a Buddha harmonious world there. A war like this is usually a sign of existence of warmonger(s), which I can consider bribing in the later game.

    Turn 88:
    My luck returns. A GS is born.
     
  17. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    I’d like to talk briefly about the position and organization of the cities. But please note at first I’m really not a CE-lover and tend to prioritize hammer.

    Delhi:
    Spoiler :

    I need Delhi to be a GP farm for another 5 turns. I wish luck to have a GS to bulb Philosophy.

    Meanwhile, I'm cottaging the city. After the GP, I'll grow the pop, once Philosophy is bulbed, it will be a powerful CE/SE combo city.


    Bombay:
    Spoiler :

    A productive city at the early time. Only 3 pops can provide 13 output.

    The courthouse was at first the last choice during the growth of pop before Pottery – it was supposed to be an early industrial city so Library is not prioritized. I feel it’s not bad to finish it to keep the EP advantage towards Willem. It may have been a mistake, but anyway it’s harmless, and courthouse pays back in 60-80 turns.

    Research capacity seems insufficient in long run, so I’m changing Bombay to be a CE city: it may not be the best one, but the others are at the beginning of development and unable to afford Library+Granary. And cottages here are free from pillage at war.


    Vija:
    Spoiler :

    The position of this city is very clear: resource-oriented. Two gems are being exploited. They provide 13 commerce, with a national research lever (commerce=>beaker) of 150%-160%, that’s 20 bpt. It’s critical for me to pass through the painful period where I’m changing my economy from SE to CE/SE combo.

    The gems will harm a lot the growth of the city but it’s necessary on the whole. After the most difficult stage, the city will be oriented to be a hammer city. It’s extremely powerful under CS+SP.


    Pata:
    Spoiler :

    The city was built too late. I prefer to make it a hammer one than a CE city: it’s on the very border between my enemy and me. Cottages are fragile here and I prefer to grow them in Bombay or somewhere else.

    The biggest resource of the city is the grassland, that’s 2F4H under CS and SP. No warmonger can resist to this temptation.

     
  18. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Location:
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    Turn 90, 625BC:
    Alphabet complete. Ask Willem for Fishing and get 10 turns of peace.
    Spoiler :

    I make a recap here to evaluate the situation, using a Marketing theory of SWOT:
    Spoiler :

    Strength:
    1) A good SE (beakers from scientists; two GP settled in the city; one GS wait to bulb Philo) and it’s going to be more powerful with Pacifism.
    Comment: To keep.
    2) A strong and potential capital
    Comment: To make more happiness, grow the pop and make more cottages.
    3) A land sufficient for 6 good cities
    Comment: To build two more cities.
    4) Very good tech situation: got three Classic techs (IW, CoL and Alphabet); Philo ready to be bulbed.
    Comment: To keep.
    5) Three religions I’ve got (soon will be four)
    Comment: To postpone the trade for Monarchy. To build temples when happiness is needed.

    Weakness:
    1) A weak CE
    Comment: To cottage Delhi and Bombay.
    2) Cities lack of pops and infrastructure
    Comment: To prioritize granary and farms
    3) Expansion too slow
    Comment: To only cottage the early cities and make the late ones hammer cities
    4) Lack of workers (only 5)
    Comment: To improve

    Opportunity:
    1) A big probability to obtain Optics before Willem
    Comment: Watch him.
    2) The other continent at war and their tech may be slowed
    Comment: Good. Take care of the diplomatic relation and tech trades with them once contacted
    3) Willem seems peaceful and friendly
    Comment: a plus for military expansion. To try the best to obtain tech advantages
    4) Only one neighbor
    Comment: a plus for military expansion.

    Threat:
    1) No tech trade
    Comment: To save beakers as much as possible and beeline Optics. Not to build too many cities in order not to slow down the economy
    2) Peacemonger(s) possibly on the other continent (Except the Oracle, all the wonders are built on the other continent)
    Comment: Attention to their culture condition and to the tech trade with them
    3) Warmonger(s) probably on the other continent
    Comment: To watch them and use them.
    4) A little war threat from Willem
    Comment: beg money after Currency to guarantee the safety as much as possible

    I release this save 625BC (and later the one at 1AD) for those who love comparing :)
    Spoiler :

     

    Attached Files:

  19. Ragrrr

    Ragrrr Chieftain

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    It is incredibly refreshing to see an unconventional playstyle at deity level. Don't mind the preachers of received wisdom.
     
  20. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

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    Hi :hatsoff:,

    definately a nice thread and interesting read...
    Wouldn't it be better to NOT grab as many religions as you can (maybe you are blessed with Shaka, Toku, and Monty on the other continent -well blessed is a bit too strong :D - maybe there are all trading having the same religion)?

    edit: I realized that after oracling COL, delaying philo might not be good as you have a really focused economy, but i wonder what you think about it.
     

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