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Dingding’s Deity Challenge – Gandhi: India’s Conquest

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dingding, Jan 26, 2010.

  1. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    Dingding, The major reason I researched Compass is that it is the only tech willem did not have atm, in isolated or semi-ioslated, my 1st goal is almost always CS, and Optics is 2nd.

    To 940AD -- Astro
    Spoiler :

    Tech:
    Compass (trade for Alpha)->Math->Currency->CoL->CS (JC came 1 turn before CS which opened the trade opportunity, so I traded MC and Machinery)->Optics->Nat


    Currency in 75AD, cities and cottages start to mature. BPT is close to 200.



    CS in 400 AD, BPT is close to 300


    Optics in 500AD, won navigation in 600ish



    Meet AIs in other continent, they are not that advanced, Willem is the most advanced AI depite he is semi-isolated. He got Liberalism in 500ish.

    After some trade, here's the tech situation.



    Trade Astro from Willem. Empire of 12 cities. HE unlocked. I only produced 3 GPS, going to focus on it after NE is online 3 turns later.



    Tech -- Not bad even in non-isolated map.



    800AD save is attached for your reference.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. martin026

    martin026 Chieftain

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    This has been a great thread. I think I have been having more fun reading other peoples write ups of their games, than I have had playing them out.

    One of the few where I did not skip most non report posts. All the discussion has been very educational...
     
  3. Udey1

    Udey1 Prince

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    Champaign Illinois
    @OBS
    Sorry for the tardiness. At the time I did this I still played huts on, so that explains some of the craziness.
     

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  4. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Thanks a lot!:goodjob:

    Your skills are really impressive! Thanks to your game, I can confirm some observations:

    1) At the early stage of the game, the fewer cities a FIN leader has, the faster his research is.
    REMIND: The pictures inside will preview my game.
    Spoiler :
    I'm serious.
    Spoiler :
    My Willem is freer to grab the land than yours, but he’s punished by his overexpansion.
    At 960AD of my game:

    At 940AD of your game:


    2) Philosophy is crucial to lock the Liber line.

    3) The more cities you have, the latter they will pay back.

    I’ll give some explanation on these points in the report, and I’ll compare the two different economy models at 940AD.
     
  5. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Let’s return to our game :

    Turn 97:
    Mathematics finished. Philosophy is bulbed and found Taoism Revolution to Pacifism.
    Spoiler :

    There are 3 blockages of AI’s Liber Chase: Philo, Paper and Education. In my opinion, Philosophy is the most important one. If you get it first, peacemongers will very often turn to chase Divine Right => Nationalism, rather than Paper => Education. Another factor is that no AI favors Pacifism, so they seldom chase Philo if Taoism is no longer available.

    To grab another religion has 3 meanings for us:
    1) Slow down an AI’s potential Culture Victory. (as TMIT pointed out)
    2) Accelerate my research.
    3) Slow down an AI’s research.
     
  6. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Turn 99:
    The next research turns to Currency=>sailing. Currency is only 490:science:, 20% cheaper than normal because I have both Alphabet and Mathematics. That brings a 2-3 :commerce: trade road for every city, that’s 12-14 for me. 12:commerce: = 17:science:, so the it will pay back in 490/17 = 28 turns. It won’t delay the Optics beeline. And also city hammers gold will be more efficient than hammer beaker.

    The fourth settler is done. Delhi is in the transition from a SE city to a CE/SE combo one.
    Spoiler :

    I’ll talk about my economy model here. To make it clear, I introduce an indicator I call the Beaker Lever (symbol :science:/:commerce:). The indicator is very practical for us to understand different economy models (Bureau CE, FS CE, SE, HE, TE, what ever).
    Spoiler :
    Definition:
    This indicator measures the capacity of the whole economy to convert one unity of commerce into beaker. To find it, we just need a little calculation:
    Spoiler :

    At the early phase of the game, 1 :commerce: = 1 :espionage:. So:
    Δ:espionage:= Δ:commerce: = 49-6 = 43
    Δ:science: = 59-10 = 59
    :science:/ :commerce: = Δ:science:/Δ:commerce: = 137%

    Spoiler :
    As the game goes on, 1 :commerce: gives more than 1 :espionage: because of the espionage bonus we get from Castles, Prisons and SB. But as this kind of building is little prioritized and seldom built, we can easily calculate exactly how much bonus of :espionage: we get and ignore it. I’ll give an example in the future.

    Obviously the same theory can apply to :gold:/ :commerce:, :culture:/:commerce: and :espionage:/ :commerce:. That’s right but let’s only remember the first one, I call Gold Lever. We’ll meet it again at the latter stage of the game.

    As I explained in the SWOT, I’m going to develop CE in Delhi and Bombay, and leave the others as hammer ones. It will be a CE/SE centralized + Hammer Economy hybrid economy.

    My best advantage to develop this economy, it’s that I’ve got 4 religions and an academy in the capital. As the commerce is very centralized in Delhi, an academy can raise the :science:/:commerce: by 20%-30%, and a monetary can easily add 5-6% to this ratio: it’s pretty considerable for an only 60-hammer building. And 3 buildings like this can greatly improve my economy in an efficient way.

    I’m absolutely NOT telling you that we should chase every religion tech to accelerate the research. No. My conclusion is that the more centralized the economy is, the more efficient the beaker-bonus buildings are. Or, the more beaker-bonus buildings are available for you, the more efficient a centralized the economy is.

    Let’s talk about the hammer cities. I have the possibility to develop a cottage-everywhere economy, like Duckweed did in his REX strategy; but here I prefer to leave some of the cities specialized in production. I love them. They are not demanding: with a simple Granary, they can start to work (hammer gold); they give the most important output in my conquest: hammers. And they never complain of the overpopulation. : )

    Finally a few word about the economy models:
    Spoiler :
    If we look into the different economy models in the same way, we’ll find the research combo (especially Academy and Oxford) is much more economically-efficient in a highly-Burea-Cap system, than in an Free-Speech system: in the first system, you spend few effort (only build the combo in a few economic cities) and obtain a high improvement on :science:/:commerce:. Another example is in a highly-decentralized economy like an early GLH Traderoad Economy, the effort to raise the ratio is great and so inadvisable before a more centralized economy is developed (CE developed).

    Specialization of cities is not something new, here I’m just giving another explanation.
     
  7. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Turn 102:
    Varanasi is built (the fifth city), a good hammer city.

    If I had built it 1W, it would get 1 more grassland. But a coastal city on the hill is the nightmare of every warmonger AI.
    Spoiler :

    Turn 107:
    Currency complete. The Optics beeline begins: MC => Machinery => Compass => Optics

    Turn 108:
    Agra is built (the sixth one). It ought to be a hammer city but the grassland is far to be irrigated (CS is not yet on the list), so I have to make it a cottage city for the time being, but I keep the possibility to turn it into a hammer city if necessary.
    Spoiler :

    That’s all the cities I want to establish. You may have noticed that in TMIT, ABCF and Duckweed’s play, they built 9+ cities. I have a burdensome responsibility to explain why I wanted just 6.

    The number of cities is one of the most important factors of the economy model. There is only one standard for a good economy model: it should match your strategy or it’s exactly a part of your strategy. When we are establishing the economy model, we should ask ourselves whether we will, under this model, acquire the advantages (tech, production, etc.) exactly at the time they are needed. If not, find another model, or find another strategy.
    Spoiler :
    Economy model <=======> Strategy
    How you win depends on how you play, and how you play depend on how you want to win.

    If we look into the game of TMIT, we&#8217;ll find his strategy is clear: Culture Victory. So he made 9 cities and then he could build 3 cathedrals with one religion. He also applied a heavy CE, which is a common way to bang out the culture.
    Spoiler :

    ABCF and Duckweed have very good expansion and development skills. But like TMIT, they&#8217;ve abandoned the tech advantages at early and medium stages of the game, by using an aggressive and heavy expansion &#8211; that would certainly made them miss the first golden tech to lightbulb: Philosophy. That&#8217;s a double loss for a PHI leader. Without access to lightbulb a good tech, they might end up with settling all the GP into the city.

    It's another investment which is considerable in the long run: GP settled in the city gives sustainable output.However, it's much less lucrative in the short term than a lightbulb, in which a GP worths 1000-1500 beakers.

    I'm trying a totally different way: to maximize SE in the early phase of the game. The tech advance will be kept till Renaissance Era or even Industrial Era (if tech trade is efficient). In this familiar rhyme, I&#8217;m pretty sure I can succeed in an expansion with Cannons or Rifles.

    On Deity however, to build a city is a heavy cost for an early economy (Settler worth 100h, a worker 60h and Archer 25h; heavy maintenance). The investment will be certainly repaid but the more you invested (the more cities you build), the latter you&#8217;ll get the pay-back. If I had built too many cities, I would have missed the chance to bulb Philo, postponed the Optics beeline or even missed the chance for expansion.

    I mean, PHI is rather an early trait. The best use of an early trait (PHI, CRE, IMP, ect) is to use the butterfly effect: early advantage => late advantage, so maximize its effect as early as possible. If I were to play a REX like ABCF or Duckweed, I would apply a less aggressive strategy and try to give a shot for Philosophy lightbulb.
     
  8. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Turn 114:
    MC complete. Go to Machinery.

    Turn 115:
    1AD.
    Spoiler :



    You can find the save enclosed.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. vanatteveldt

    vanatteveldt Emperor

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    It would be interesting to compare bpt and cumulative beakers (ie techs including bulbed) at 1AD between the various approaches.

    I like the idea of giving a financial monster room to expand on purpose to weaken him until mid-game at which time you take over management of his empire. Curious to see how it will work out...
     
  10. JammerUno

    JammerUno King

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    Does the AI base choice of next technology to research on the benefits like religion/wonders. I think I remember they don't.

    I've always felt cities start having a net positive effect very fast, especially after currency and with enough workers available, especially with the land available here. More cities also means more production/drafting so you have some more slack in the technological advantage you need for a succesful war.
    Even so; the relative cost of settling more cities decreases fast after 1 AD, so perhaps the optimal play is to block off the needed land with the minimum amount of cities and then backfill, getting the best of both worlds.
    Another question here is the amount Duckweed traded with WvO; both for techs and gold to keep defecit research. This game might be more of a showcase of the tradeoff between techtrading vs. no techtradingin semi-isolation. (Duckweed is also taking a different route here; nat -> MT for what I guess is a push for cuirassiers, whereas you have better tech, but no distinct militairy advantage yet)
     
  11. ABigCivFan

    ABigCivFan Emperor

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    This statement is misleading. Depending on the resources available in the new cities you settle, or the Quality of the cities. Good cities with food/hammer/commerce will quickly pay their costs by:

    1. Work commerce tiles
    2. Run scientists/merchants
    3. Increased trade routes
    4. Build wealth/research to boost gold/beakers

    This is especially true after you get Currency/Alpha/COL. However it makes good sense not to over expand (settle mediocre cities) prior to getting these crucial conversion techs.

    Also assume all games are aiming for a renaissance war expansion with similar tech pace, a player with more mature cities will have clear advantage given more production cities, more cities to draft/whip from thus allowing a faster war pace.
     
  12. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    To JammerUno:
    There is no doubt: they do. AI calculates tech&#8217;s value when deciding which one to research or bulb.
    I don&#8217;t think he has traded much with WvO because no matter which tech line he chose (CS &#8211;Liber line or Optics), Willem was faster. One interesting thing is that he traded Willem Compass for Alphabet, which would make him beeline Optics.


    To ABCF:
    The statement is based on the practices on the same map with the same leader. I agree with you resources help a lot to shorten the pay-back, but with the same tiles you can work on, the more cities you build, the more resources, good tiles and trees one city can obtain. The better one city can grow, the sooner you can obtain its pay-back &#8211; we return to the initial statement.

    When talking about different leader, the statement will be more or less true. It&#8217;s more true for a PHI leader, whose first GP is 50% cheaper, the second one 33% cheaper. Overexpansion postpones the cheap techs on the way to expensive lightbulbs. I deem it as a great loss when counting the pay-back. It&#8217;s less true for a FIN leader: new cities to provide a faster return.
     
  13. ABigCivFan

    ABigCivFan Emperor

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    A big part of early REX is to block off AI so you can have more land to settler later. If I were to choose between the Oracle and 2 decent cities, I would choose the 2 cities 99%. We can not guarantee AIs will give you all the time to "claim" your land at leisure hence the early rush for land grabbing.

    Update to 960AD:

    Spoiler :


    Went the Edu line, single bulb philo, single bulb Edu. Trade CS to WvO for MC. He got Philo in 400BC and lib in the 500ADs.

    I picked up Literature, drama and Music along the way, Printing press atm, then going Astro line. Focused on cottages in capital, farm/mine/workshop everywhere else.

    WvO got an GE and rushed AP at 500AD, I whipped Budda temple/Monastery in every city + 3 Cathedrals for AP hammers. This helps the low hammer cities a lot.

    960AD: Oxford is in, after PP, will go Astro then --> Steel --> Rifling and aiming for a cannon/Rifle war. Building NE in Lahore (Fish/Cow/farms) and Globe in Calcutta (Fish/Cow/Farms). Draft + Caste workshops will power the war. Sending some Mace to the barb city island trying to unlock HE. Only traded Edu to 1 other city, they are all fast. JC is a monster, will be tough.



     
  14. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

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    @ABCF:
    Spoiler :
    OMG Julius! Do you think Willem's land can be enough to win before him, or do you plan an invasion? I hope the last AI is Alex, maybe he will hold a bit better than the rest...


    Ras
     
  15. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    Dingding, as other had mentioned, there're many advantages that REXing with a reasonable tech position over significant smaller empire with a little more advanced tech position. I think REX strategy wins around 1000AD, we're about the same tech position to critical military techs (either Rifling or Steel), while there's big difference of land, which can be easily translated to military units. cities and citizens are storage of hammers.

    Played in an ordinary way to 1240AD -- the conquering of Willem
    Spoiler :

    Tech: MT->Gunpowder

    Cuir is available in 1080AD, after 10 turns, I assembled 30+ Cuirs and they are ready to blow the war horn to Willem in 1180AD. In the same time, I have to switch to no religion and beg for forced peace with Survy and Alex, so that Willem has to face me alone in 10 turns.


    A city of size 10 can produce 3 Cuirs in 6 turns, this is a city produced 4 Cuirs that you did not bother to settle.


    1090 AD, captured 3 cities

    1230AD, got 4th city

    1240AD, captured 5th city and Willem is ready to capitulate. He remains strong research power and is very advanced atm. I like this fact since he is the only trade partner.



    Empire of 17 cities. in 10 turns, after OU is online and willem's cities start to function, the BPT can easily reach over 1000. ~1500AD, I should be able to invade either Alex or Licoln with cavs, Suvy and JC can be dealt with Bomber ~1600AD. I think a win before 1700AD should be achievable.




    BTW, I rarely build any cannons and artillery since I think they are awkward to use.
     

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  16. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    I agree with this. Farmed cow, no bw so no chopping of oracle means you didn't get the thing so much faster sacrificing almost everything to this goal, what if you'd failed, quite possible on deity. Actually i think it would have gone better since you would have build settlers/workers instead of assigning scientists. I found it really hard to take this all seriously after this. Some posters think it's refreshing to see a different strat, personally i don't see so much difference with strats i've seen in the past. I've seen Rusten play like this with a philo leader years ago, but he did research the worker techs first so he worked prime tiles and used the unimproved tiles for scientists after he had blocked off his share of land. I looked at your 1 ad screenshot you have 75 bpt, that's quite low and you don't even have 10 cities to show for it. Look at some of my walkthroughs or those of Duckweed, ABCF for that matter, often 8 cities and 200 bpt around 1 ad. This is an easy map to begin with, as Duckweed and ABCF showed it's a walk in the park. So you got quite a bit of leeway, on harder maps you can't play like this imo. There's a lot of theory here but i miss a solid foundation.
     
  17. pku_dwest

    pku_dwest Chieftain

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    Dingding is a master.
    He has completed several no-s/l Deity games and developed many strategies in the gameplaying.
    By the way, who found Christ?
    I guess there r 2 regions on the opposite.
    Obviously, the Apostolic Palace will be a problem. Perhaps you can see five friendly guys.
     
  18. ABigCivFan

    ABigCivFan Emperor

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    @Ras

    Spoiler :


    William is pushing for culture, I dont think i will have much trouble to take him out. His land are full of matured cottages and budda shrine+Sankore. It will double my commerce. But JC will be a real pain, he has 3 Vassels, Sistine. I really dont like to take on 4 AIs via an intercontinental war, i can try a spy/EP heavy and diplomacy approach to delay him while i could go space or culture.



    @Dirk

    Not exactly a easy game for me as the outcome is not clear yet. This is a very interesting thread so far. As a community we should encourage more of these discussions so everyone can learn more about this complex game, see what works and what dones't under different circumstances; and hopefully improve our own games.
     
  19. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    ^Agree, i have participated in many of these discussions in the past and above post is just my 2 cents here. I just clearly don't believe much in the way DingDing played it also from the results of the 1 ad post.That's why i wrote a clear statement instead of making a mild suggestion that cows need pastures.

    I think later on in the game there's more room for deviation but neglecting resources in the early game for so long must be a losing proposition.
     
  20. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    Indeed, semi-isolated start is a tough map similar to isolated start (although this map is a relatively easy map, you don't live with Shaka:p) hence the comparison of various approach is interesting.

    Dingding, I also like to see how's your game in later stage.
     

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