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Diplo victory since the patch

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Pilsener Grease, Nov 2, 2013.

  1. Pilsener Grease

    Pilsener Grease Chieftain

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    Prior to the release of the patch, there were a lot of complaints that diplomatic victory was too easy to achieve. Do people now feel that this problem has been resolved?
     
  2. Jon the Bastard

    Jon the Bastard Warlord

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    I have found it easier to keep the AI from winning a diplomatic victory; but, I've found it a bit more difficult for me to win one. I mean, it's still possible, of course, but the one I have won since the fall patch was a "by the skin of [my] teeth" type thing.

    Generally, I think increasing the number of votes you need was a smart thing... it requires you to have more money for buying up votes in the late game, and that process seems to have gotten more contentious, as I've noticed multiple civs going after and competing for city-state allies. I mean, it got to the point in one match where I was having to spend 3,000 to 4,000 (that's not total, by the way, that's just in one go) gold on just one city-state because the Shoshone and I were in a bidding war over certain city-state allies. Spies help, of course, but they are never going to be the sole reason you win a diplomatic victory. You need those dolla dolla bills, too.

    Of course, if you are war mongering, that changes the diplo game completely. Mutilates it beyond all recognition. But, generally, I've found it more difficult to win a diplomatic victory.
     
  3. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Yup; in fact for those that didn't get the Vote for Pedro achievement before the patch; it's now very difficult to do so. (You'll win by a Caraval induced Cultural victory)

    If you are not after achievements; basically pre-patch, Diplomatic was by far the quickest of the peaceful victory conditions.
    Now, it appears to be Cultural victory was is fastest; but unless playing a civ with a tourism advantage, it's not by a large margin.
    Space race though is now by far the slowest of the peaceful victory conditions. It already was slower than the other two before the patch and became slower.
     
  4. holywar

    holywar Chieftain

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    I just won a space victory in 1924 on emperor with Poland. There must be something in those sausages.
     
  5. kwidem

    kwidem Warlord

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    Man, those sausages are the würst.
     
  6. sonicandfffan

    sonicandfffan Warlord

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    Honestly, every other victory type is still easier to achieve than a space victory.

    This really does sound like a würst case scenario.

    ...I can't believe that I haven't posted in months and THAT is the first thing I post. Sorry guys. :(
     
  7. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

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    Huh, that's interesting. I haven't played post patch yet, but pre patch I couldn't figure out how to keep up technologically while going for anything other than a science victory (I turned diplo victory off, so that doesn't count). How do you keep up your science while going for culture, especially on higher difficulties?
     
  8. myclan

    myclan Prince

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    Previously I don't need globalization at all for a diplo victory, but now it is a must.
     
  9. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    With BNW, going for any peaceful victory condition, you fill all science slots and also build all the guilds and run them. You also fill Rationalism going for any victory condition.
    To get the food for all those specalists, you have your capital run all the guilds and then run 3 food cargo ship routes to it for most of the game.
     
  10. EK834

    EK834 Prince

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    To say what I really think of it: It's the same in the end. It's the mechanics that leaves you no choice but to rely on buying the CS that's its fundamental flaw, and it's a shame since between the ideologies and the warmongering penalties they had the ingredients to develop something much cooler than that for BNW.

    But that wasn't your question. The victory isn't precisely more difficult but it's somewhat delayed in some games, which is an amelioration. It's also not as linear, as sometimes buying all the CS isn't enough. Pre patch it was ultra easy to achieve it on the first try. Now you have to prepare for it a bit more. Without being host, without the FP, without World Ideology, if quite a few CS have been absorbed, puppeted or conquered and if there are no dead civs to bring back to life to get their vote for you there's now a good chance the best that can be achieved in the first session for WL is to come out of it #1 (which gives extra delegates), but there's no winner. It's now more frequent you need to get to Globalization and need to send most or all of your spies as diplomats in capitals for the extra delegates it provides in order to make the numbers and win.

    So I guess the patch does exactly what it intended and the diplomatic victory no longer stands as much in the way if you want to reach the CV or SV without "cheating" by abstaining from grabbing the diplo victory even when you can (that's still better than disabling the condition, IMO.. at least this way you have to counter a victory by Alex or Siam...). It can now happen around the same time as an average CV or SV (my last SV, the second WL vote was 25 turns later).

    It varies, though. I've had games in which I could perfectly grab the diplo victory on the first voting session if I wanted, just like pre-patch.

    I noticed that usually when you're in a solid position for a CV or SV, a diplo victory is also within easy reach if you refocused your late game decisions just a little bit to grab the few extra delegates you miss .
     
  11. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    This is mostly due to a weakness of the AI in defending against them, as the opposite is basically true in multiplayer (space race is far easier than cv or dv), as there's essentially no defense against it (besides war). For dv, you can take control of CSs (or conquer them), for cv you can boost your own culture, send musicians, not agree to things like open borders, embargo the civ (ending trade routes, killing the 40% cv bonus). The AI does very little of this (they'll happily keep open borders and the 40% boost until they loose). Human players will.

    You can do very little to directly stop or slow down an impending science victory except war (or try and win first).
     
  12. Aenthin

    Aenthin Warlord

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    You could always remove it from the victory conditions though. That's always helpful.
     
  13. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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    If you focus on tourism, and your first spy is level 3 you can send that spy into CS's whose allies you're influential/dominant over. In 1 turn your spy will establish his surveillance and usually you can perform a successful coup right there and then(seems to depend on your influence versus the civ's influence over that CS). In my last game I got 8 of China's(who I was influential over) allies before my spy was killed.

    To answer the OP it would seem diplo victory is indeed harder post patch. Buying open borders for 50 gold or 2gpt, however is still going on even though that was meant to be fixed.
     
  14. EK834

    EK834 Prince

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    Someone posted the code and explained it in another thread. It seems that if you don't show clear signs of going for a culture victory, for instance if you've built Appolo or have tons of CS allies it "fools" the AI. They're programmed to refuse OP when they identify that a player is going for a CV.

    I've semi-verified that using my ongoing game in which I was clearly going for science but I had to sabotage my theming bonuses and avoid the NVC and Internet on purpose not to win by culture first. The AI never refused me OB.

    I went back to an earlier save and built the NVC on my way to Internet, and then the AI refused to renew the OB for 1 gpt deals.

    So did probably needs some more tweaking, to make the AI refuse non mutual OB whenever your tourism and culture are too strong and they lose more than they can benefit from the deal. Right now it seems to work on the higher levels, and below only if you don't have more than a culture victory in reach and the AI think you're after another than Culture.
     
  15. Heretiv

    Heretiv Warlord

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    Hhu?
    I am a bit lost here -= Diplo victory seems to be mainly about having lots fo CS allies vote for you since the other nations won't. Coulture/Tourism victory all about high culture output and lots of works of art surely?
     
  16. EK834

    EK834 Prince

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    Someone was saying diplo victory is indeed harder, but the fixes to make the AI try to stop the Cultural Victory however were not always working (if you're close to having enough delegates for a DV, and have the Apollo Program and have not built the NVC or the Internet yet the AI seems to get confused and pick the wrong Victory Condition you're after, and new code for refusing OB deals to you no matter how friendly you stand is triggered by a positive to "Are they after a CV?", not "Would I lose more by giving OB than by refusing it")..
     
  17. Dogmouth

    Dogmouth King

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    Yes, it seems balanced now. As for the Open Border (OB) discussion, I can confirm that being close to a diplomatic victory (DV) will fool the AI into opening borders and allowing a cultural victory (CV). In my most recent game, I was 4 turns away from a DV when I won a CV. All but one of my cultural victims maintained open borders until the end. Ooops! I guess it really didn't matter though.
     
  18. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    They raised the vote count which made it harder but didn't solve the fundamental problem: AI needs to by some city-states when you are about to win the vote, instead they just sit around doing nothing when you buy out all their allies, even though they have tons of cash in the bank. Was so before patch, and is exactly the same now. Very frustrating. If they gave AI a sanity check on this, they could lower the vote count needed to below what it was before the patch and it would still be harder to win a diplo win - as it should be.

    I never win Science victories anymore unless I actively hold off winning either cultural or diplomatic. The tech path for Particle Physics brings me right up through Telecommunication, and at that point it's easier to just take either Globalization or Internet to secure either win instead of waddling all the way through the lower tech tree also and go to the bother of building the space ship parts. Very shoddy tech tree design there. I mean, every single science-boosting technology is required to go the culture path which is a bit of a laugh, because that means you'll end up on the culture path even if you aim for the science path.
     
  19. compwiz1202

    compwiz1202 King

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    It shouldn't matter what they think you're after; they can see what % of their culture your tourism is. If it's >x% and rising, they should do what they can to cut off the modifiers.
     
  20. fat_tonle

    fat_tonle Prince

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    Really? Space Victory is easiest for me on Immortal. I am a tall, building player, and if I can't keep up on wonders, I just go with science and pull away in the Atomic. By far the easiest victory for me, and less proactive mining for works of art.
     

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