[NFP] Diplo victory - too hard to too easy?

[Loderingo]

Before NFP diplo victory was very hard to get due to everyone piling on the leader. I'm now wondering if it has gone too far the other way.

In my first post-patch game I played as Cree on deity with level 4 disasters and apocalypse mode. The sheer number of aid requests plus my 5 alliances meant I was able to get a very easy diplo win.

In my current game, I'm playing Lautaro on immortal inland sea map. My plan was to conquer my distant neighbour Philip, while also going for science.

What has actually happened as I have just entered the modern age is that Philip has built up a massive army but has not actually used it on anyone so the opportunity for warring him has not been quite right. I was looking to declare a joint war on him with Genghis but can't see that option in the diplo menu any more (is this a bug?)

I have 5 alliances with Maya, Macedon, Rome, Hungary and Mongolia, while Brazil and Spain are friendly. Without even really trying I have managed to get 11 diplo points, only just behind that famous diplomat Genghis.

I am now building SoL, which the AI doesn't seem to build any more and it seems like diplo victory has become the path of least resistance to win. The only warring in the game has been Macedon against Brazil and Mongolia. As far as I am aware, Spain, Maya, Hungary and Rome have not been to war at all.

It definitely feels like the penalty for capturing capitals has tilted the AI too far to peaceful play. Only one city state has been conquered up to the modern era, which would definitely not have happened pre-patch with all the warmonger civs in my game.

 

[JerseyTed]

My first game post-NFP I won a diplo victory before the modern era even started. Standard disaster level and yet there were a bunch of aid requests. Winning all of those, at 2 points a pop, is a cinch. I always go out of my way to build the wonders that provide points if for nothing else just to keep any AI civ from getting too close to a diplo win. With those 7 wonder points in the bank and all the aid requests the game was over before it really started.

Second game in progress now...same story. Playing as Australia, shaping up to be a thrilling neck-and-neck fight to the finish between me and Germany...except I'm going to easily wrap up a diplo victory 100+ turns before that should even be plausible.

I mean, I guess winning is better than losing, but if every game now is going to be a cinch diplo win that takes a lot of the fun out of it.

 

[Loerwyn]

My last game was a diplo win as Jadwiga. Took me a bit of headscratching and a little bit of save-scumming but I cinched it with a 19/20 lead. Worked out voting for yourself to lose points (as the AI almost invariably votes for you to lose them beyond a certain point) results in a +1 gain if you get the other two decisions 'right', so you can still come out of it pretty good.

 

[MrRadar]

Yes, now you can win diplo almost by accident, without really trying. AI lost the enthusiasm in aid emergencies, so you can win them all with minimum effort. In my first Maya game I was going for a relaxed science victory, but as first WC votes went quite well, and there were 3 aid emergencies, easily won (disaster level 2, normal mode), I found myself with 16/20 points and noticed that SoL was available and uncontested. So I took rather accidental DV on t252, deity, standard speed.

They need to review the whole DV thing again, there is no satisfaction in such “victories”. And something must be done with scored competitions. I think there should be a finite amount of gold or production set to achieve collectively, and the 30 turn run time should be ditched.

 

[iammaxhailme]

I think the problem is that the difficulty of diplo victory depends on map size far too much.

On a small map, you can easily just overwhelm everyone's votes and get so many diplo points that you win early. On large maps with lots of civs everyone will dogpile against you and you have to spend so many diplo points to win any votes that you won't have any left next time.

It was a bit dull in civ 5 when bein the ally (suzerain in civ 6) of a city state just gave you their vote in world congress, but that was still better than the current way, imo. I think city states should get to vote as well, and "this civ gains/loses VP" votes, they always vote for their suzerain to win

 

[Loerwyn]

Yes, now you can win diplo almost by accident, without really trying. AI lost the enthusiasm in aid emergencies, so you can win them all with minimum effort. In my first Maya game I was going for a relaxed science victory, but as first WC votes went quite well, and there were 3 aid emergencies, easily won (disaster level 2, normal mode), I found myself with 16/20 points and noticed that SoL was available and uncontested. So I took rather accidental DV on t252, deity, standard speed.

They need to review the whole DV thing again, there is no satisfaction in such “victories”. And something must be done with scored competitions. I think there should be a finite amount of gold or production set to achieve collectively, and the 30 turn run time should be ditched.

For sure. On the gold ones if I'm playing Jadwiga, I have such a surplus of gold that I can do one or two big drops of gold during it to ensure I win - and by 'big drops', even just a few thousand. Which reminds me, I don't ever remember the banner ever, ever, ever representing the gold I've sent AI players nor anything they've gained from emergencies? Unless they don't actually get the gold from emergencies.

 

[Aurelesk]

What has actually happened as I have just entered the modern age is that Philip has built up a massive army but has not actually used it on anyone so the opportunity for warring him has not been quite right. I was looking to declare a joint war on him with Genghis but can't see that option in the diplo menu any more (is this a bug?)

You need a Casus Belli for a Joint War. If neither both of you denounced the enemy, nor waited 5 turns, then any of you had a Casus Belli for the Joint War.

Once you get how the AI tends to vote the resolution, you can achieve to win diplomatic point easily:

• Mercenary Companies: Vote for half cost, and depend if they have most Production, Gold or Faith. Production is safe in the early game. May change to Gold with Democracy on a peaceful map or Faith for Theocracy with a lot of Holy Site.
• Luxury Policy: Vote for the ban of the most common luxury ressource not owned by themselves. You can check this in the ressource tab.
• World Religion: For the most common religion (dumb, right?).
• Heritage Organization: I don't know, I have it really rarely, and it was always Writings, even if I got Sculpture one time.
• World Ideology: For the most common government.
• Urban Development: For the most building buildable in set district. Most of the time: City Center (because: Granary, all the Walls, Sewers...).
• Sovereignty: For the most common city-state type, even if the AI didn't encounter them yet.
• Public Relation: +100% toward the civilization with the most Grievances. If none: you.
• Espionage Pact: Random and 1 at the time. So put 3 votes on something and you are going to win it.
• Border Control: For themselves and 1 at the time. So put 2 votes on you and you are goint to win it.
• Military Advisory: For the most common unit type each civilization has.

Aids are a joke. You just need to give flat gold the last turn if you have no Production to spare, and you gain your 2 Diplomatic Points.

In the endgame, you need to be at ~15 points, manage to build the Statue of Liberty (+4). You get to 19 points, and you either win one resolution (so you went to 20 before counting the -2 against you), or you unlock the civic / technology for 1 extra point.

 

[MrRadar]

You get to 19 points, and you either win one resolution (so you went to 20 before counting the -2 against you),

That one was changed. Now, you have to have 20 at the start of your next turn. So you have to emerge from the WC session holding 20 points or more, and then you win next turn.

 

[Bliss]

They could simply fix it by reducing SoL to +2 DV points and Mohabodi Temple to +2 as well.

And the game will not be balanced towards disaster set to +4 or a lack of civilizations that don't pursue suzerains.

Best way to try it out is to put Pericles and Sweden in the match and have a clear competition for CSs.

 

[leandrombraz]

They need to balance the DV on Apocalypse mode separate from the normal game, since it's meant to be more catastrophic, leading to an excess of Aid Requests. They could increase the number of points require to win when you play Apocalypse, reduce the points you get from an Aid Request to 1, or limit how many Aid Requests can trigger at a given time.

Disasters are also happening more in often in normal games. I used to play on level 4, I'm playing a game on level 3 now, to see if I get less aid requests, because on 4 it's triggering a lot, not as much as in apocalypse mode, but still, it's way too often. Level 3 doesn't seem too far from 4 so far. I think they should adjust the DV according to the disaster intensity that the player chooses. Level 4 should require more points than level 1, for example.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

They need to balance the DV on Apocalypse mode separate from the normal game, since it's meant to be more catastrophic, leading to an excess of Aid Requests. They could increase the number of points require to win when you play Apocalypse, reduce the points you get from an Aid Request to 1, or limit how many Aid Requests can trigger at a given time.

Disasters are also happening more in often in normal games. I used to play on level 4, I'm playing a game on level 3 now, to see if I get less aid requests, because on 4 it's triggering a lot, not as much as in apocalypse mode, but still, it's way too often. Level 3 doesn't seem too far from 4 so far. I think they should adjust the DV according to the disaster intensity that the player chooses. Level 4 should require more points than level 1, for example.

They should icnrease the value needed to trigger Aid Requests in the first place. I think the standard is like a value of 8 (no idea what it relates to), so increasing that somewhat should alleviate the massive number of Aids.

Though generally, they should just rework the entire system, It's a huge disappointment and the biggest let down of the game for me. It's too random, and 75% of the possible outcomes are pretty much non-existent. I think they shoul'dve stuck with a system where you get the ability to spend Diplo Favor on a resolution againts a specific target (where possible), and then the world votes on the resolution. If it passes, the positive outcome is enacted, otherwise, the negative outcome is enacted.

 

[JerseyTed]

Second game in progress now...same story. Playing as Australia, shaping up to be a thrilling neck-and-neck fight to the finish between me and Germany...except I'm going to easily wrap up a diplo victory 100+ turns before that should even be plausible.

Got back to this game today. Not even to turn 250 but my victory is imminent as I'm at 19/20 with yet another aid request in progress to put me over the top. No AI civ is at more than 3/20. Easy peasy. Too easy.

 

[King of Prussia]

i find diplo victories to be far easier now. Especially in Apoc mode where everyone is spending favor on aid requests. They tend to be my biggest chance of losing against the AI out of all of the victory types.

having played a game in non Apoc mode compared to several in said mode, idk if the AI plays differently or if its just the higher yields from all of the disasters. I found the AI constantly having larger armies and declaring more wars there then in non Apoc mode. Perhaps they changed the behavior because of the sacrificing? I was using the double tech cost mod in both cases just to make the eras last longer.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

It is super easy on apocalypse mode, the mode is introduced for players to enjoy diplomatic victories.

It is harder on standard disaster 2 all standard setting.

 

[Snarf054]

I've always found Diplo to be the easiest VC and now it certainly appears to be even easier. Since my main goal of late is to get a win with every leader I don't really mind I'll take the DV. If I want it to be fair I just vote for what I want in the WC instead of voting for what I know will win. It's rather stupid but it's better than turning it completely off, especially since I already turn off Religious Victory every game.

 

[Loerwyn]

Just won a Gorgo game with a DV. I was playing at a relaxed pace (Standard, Ancient Start, basically default everything) because I was using the game to get some achievements as much as anything else. Turn 328 Victory. Went into Congress with 15pts, came out with 4 because I had 2k DF built up so used a good chunk of it to ensure I got the 2DP, then 2 turns later a Civic completed giving me 1DP (the Seasteads one, I think?) and I had the Tech that does on the go too. I hadn't built the Statue of Liberty, either.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

They should icnrease the value needed to trigger Aid Requests in the first place. I think the standard is like a value of 8 (no idea what it relates to), so increasing that somewhat should alleviate the massive number of Aids.

Are you talking about "WORLD_CONGRESS_REQUEST_FOR_AID_DAMAGE_MIN" or something else?

 

[bengalryan9]

I'd make the following changes:
1) AI should prioritize the Statue of Liberty. They don't, and giving this to a human player who already has a huge advantage at diplomatic victory is too much. I'd probably lower the amount of points it gives, too.
2) Only one aid emergency should be allowed at a time. If two are put up to vote at once, whichever has the most votes in favor gets the edge.
3) AI need to start voting to steal points earlier... I think this was a stealth adjustment in the last patch. If you're at 14 points now, you can still vote to give yourself +2 and win. I don't think that was the case before the patch... I could've sworn I was downvoted at 14 points before. Earlier downvotes aren't as crippling now because you can still achieve a net gain of DV points if you vote the right way.

I disagree with the notion that aid emergencies are always easy to win. I've seen the AI pour insane amounts of gold into these on Deity. I've also seen emergencies where they barely lift a finger, so it seems to vary from emergency to emergency.

 

[kaspergm]

I hear a lot about people saying the get a lot of "easy" DV points from aid emergencies, but how do you get the gold for that? In my games, AI regularly throughs 6-8000 gold after each aid emergency, and I just don't have the gold reserves to do that multiple times in a short time-frame.

 

[Basajaun]

I hear a lot about people saying the get a lot of "easy" DV points from aid emergencies, but how do you get the gold for that? In my games, AI regularly throughs 6-8000 gold after each aid emergency, and I just don't have the gold reserves to do that multiple times in a short time-frame.

My most recent DVs have been in apocalypse mode, not using gold, but squeezing 1 send aid project every 4-5 IZ/Campus projects in decently productive 3-4 cities. The moment I started doing that, I started placing 1st in emergencies left and right. I only have used gold if Im short when the competition is 1-2 turns from ending. Thing is, this was done while I was finishing the space race projects in my main cities, and in all the cases I won DV before SV could be achieved.
AI focuses a bit too much I think in the "Appease the Gods" emergency, and wastes a bit too many resources/military units that way. Slowing their progress for the rest of the game, in a game mode where a big chunk of the time is spent repairing tiles and broken districts.
I wish that competition or the soothsayers could be used in a practical way towards any victory condition. As of now they feel like a gimmick with no real consequence.
Heck, I might be wrong, but I find its more useful to use them in my own lands, or lands Im planning to expand to, in order to increase my yields, instead of using them against other AIs.