Diplomacy and the AI

[Zerro0713]

Greetings,

I've seen many videos of professional Civ4 players being able to beat the game on Monarch and higher difficulties while still being able to be very diplomatic with the AI. I am still at the Noble/Prince level but I would like to learn some tips to improve my diplomacy and trading with the AI.

1. Worst Enemy FTW!!!: I doubt there is anyway to avoid this, but at some point in time, we would probably trade with someone's worst enemy. Anyway to improve these relationships so the AI doesn't start plotting?

2. Open Borders: I'm usually hesitant to open borders only for the reason that the AI can be a real douchebag and start marching their settlers through my lands to found a settlement in my back yard. Unfortunately I do know I need Open Borders if I plan to spread my religion (which has been my new strategy to be an AP powerhouse)

3. Resources: First off I'd like this to be cleared up; Do I need more than 1 of a resource in my empire or should I sell off the excess to the AIs? Are there any resources I should never trade to the AI? (ie: Strategic resources)

4. Technology: I feel this is the area I need the most improvement. I am so paranoid at giving away techs to the AI because I feel, by giving the AI certain techs, they may find a way to get a head of me (ie: Getting to Liberalism, getting ahead in military, or accumulating a super score). What are some tips to follow when trading tech in order to get the best return on investment? Also, what techs are more valuable to AIs than other techs? If all the AIs are lacking a tech that I have a monopoly on and I go ahead and trade the tech to one of the AI, should I trade it to all the other AIs since the AI have a secret love pact between each other, forcing them to be friendly and trade with each other? Any techs I should hold off on trading? (ie: Military Techs, Philosophy/Education(before getting Liberalism), Replaceable Parts, etc) Is it a good idea to invest some beakers into a tech before trying to trade for it from the AI?

5. Declaration of War: How much should I be willing to spend to get an AI to goto war with another AI?

Thank you for the assistance. As I stated, Technology trading is probably the area I need the most work in.

 

[lymond]

1. Worst Enemy FTW!!!: I doubt there is anyway to avoid this, but at some point in time, we would probably trade with someone's worst enemy. Anyway to improve these relationships so the AI doesn't start plotting?

Well, you should generally always know who is someone's worst enemy. Ask yourself if it's worth it. Also, not all trades cause the WE malus. It gets more complicated to explain that but is a factor of how long you've know AIs and trade values. Regardless, there is generally an AI or group of AIs that you shun and a group you ally with. Trade freely with your allies and judicially with your enemies. If you are powerful, it really doesn't matter much anyway.

2. Open Borders: I'm usually hesitant to open borders only for the reason that the AI can be a real douchebag and start marching their settlers through my lands to found a settlement in my back yard. Unfortunately I do know I need Open Borders if I plan to spread my religion (which has been my new strategy to be an AP powerhouse)

Actually, AIs do not send settlers through your cultural territory - on land. They may go around you or sail through your borders, but they will not go directly through your land. Generally, you want to open borders immediately with most everyone and get foreign trade routes asap. Just note who does not like who, as they often ask you to cancel OB with their enemies. Goes back to question 1 - who are your enemies and allies? Also, note that this can change over the course of the game, even frequently, so just keep tabs on the diplo atmosphere. BUG Advisors help.

As for religion and AP, not sure where you are going with that. Sounds like you are founding early religions, which is generally not recommended. However, if you are...say...Oracling Theo, that may be a different matter.

3. Resources: First off I'd like this to be cleared up; Do I need more than 1 of a resource in my empire or should I sell off the excess to the AIs? Are there any resources I should never trade to the AI? (ie: Strategic resources)

You don't need more than 1 resource until Corporations, as the Corp benefits of each resource do stack (e.g., fish or rice with Sushi). Otherwise, you only need one of each resource. Always trade your surplus resources for happies/health and especially GPT. I sometimes even trade my last of a resource. For instance, I will trade copper to a friend if I have iron. A strat like copper should get you a lot of nice stuff. Or I might trade a health resource if I'm expansive.

As for what not to trade, it's pretty simple. Ask yourself "at this time, does this resource provide an advantage to this AI". Strats are obvious. Pretty stupid to trade iron to someone you are about to attack in the near future. Marble and stone are not good choices to trade if you are planning to build a wonder soon that gets a bonus from those quarry resource. Conversely, if you plan to conquer wonders vs. building them - something I do often - why not trade it for some stuff now to an AI you plan to attack later so that they build the shinies for you.

As you can see, a lot of things are situational with this game. Depends on your strategy or style. No real cookie cutter approach.

4. Technology: I feel this is the area I need the most improvement. I am so paranoid at giving away techs to the AI because I feel, by giving the AI certain techs, they may find a way to get a head of me (ie: Getting to Liberalism, getting ahead in military, or accumulating a super score). What are some tips to follow when trading tech in order to get the best return on investment? Also, what techs are more valuable to AIs than other techs? If all the AIs are lacking a tech that I have a monopoly on and I go ahead and trade the tech to one of the AI, should I trade it to all the other AIs since the AI have a secret love pact between each other, forcing them to be friendly and trade with each other? Any techs I should hold off on trading? (ie: Military Techs, Philosophy/Education(before getting Liberalism), Replaceable Parts, etc) Is it a good idea to invest some beakers into a tech before trying to trade for it from the AI?

Well, that's quite a loaded question here. Tech trading does take some practice to really get comfortable with it. It's made a bit easier once you get Currency (most important tech in the game) and bring gold into the equation. You've probably already figured out the you don't get straight up trade value for techs with the AI, i.e., you have to give up more to get less. However, like you mention with monopoly techs, they can really pay off by netting you a lot of free techs.

In a certain regard, you answered a good portion of your own question. Yes, certainly hold off on trading obvious techs that threaten your strategy (Lib, Wonders, Military Advantage). Once you achieve your goal, trade liberally for techs and gold. Heck, I'll gift techs a lot just for the diplo bonus. On higher levels, tech trading is very important. On lower levels that you play, you "should" be pulling way ahead of the AIs in tech, so you might not trade much to keep AIs backwards - after some initial backfilling.

Is it a good idea to invest some beakers into a tech before trying to trade for it from the AI?

I do this a lot, but it is situational. Sometimes you may have to invest beakers into a certain tech just to trade for it at all. A good example is Aesths for Alpha early the game (a common ploy on higher levels). Otherwise, it really just depends on what you have to offer and are willing to give up at the time. Ask yourself the value of certain older techs that you have lying around. Something like Drama and HBR might be worth as add-ons once your past that era. In...say...a potential blockbuster trade, you might pick up a bunch of backfill techs that you can then turnaround and throw into a deal with another AI to pick up something else. It's hard to explain in a vacuum, you just get a feel for it. Follow some games here and on youtube and you'll learn.

What techs AIs value? I think the better question is "What techs do AIs prioritize/beeline?". If you know those techs, you know which ones to generally avoid so as to set up trades for them later. Early game, things such as Maths and IW are always AI priorities. Some AI will usually get Alpha, but not always. On higher levels, players go for Aesths and use it to backfill IW/Maths/Alpha and religious junk. Later, techs like Feud/Machinery/Construction/Engineering/Guilds/Calendar are always a priority for every AI...you can bank on it.

5. Declaration of War: How much should I be willing to spend to get an AI to goto war with another AI?

Well, it's somewhat relative to the particular stage of the game. I'll give up a lot if it's important to my strategy and will set off a chain reaction. It's important to note that the cost of bribes depend of the AIs you are bribing for/against. AIs have thresholds and AIs will be hesitant to go to war with powerful AIs. If you are already at war with an AI the cost will generally be less. So I will usually start fake wars, so that I can bribe other AIs into the war. If you check Absolute Zero's videos, he does this a lot. You'd learn a lot about this aspect of the game.

 

[Seraiel]

Greetings,

Hi

I've seen many videos of professional Civ4 players being able to beat the game on Monarch and higher difficulties while still being able to be very diplomatic with the AI. I am still at the Noble/Prince level but I would like to learn some tips to improve my diplomacy and trading with the AI.

Diplomacy is one of the best keys to be successful in Civ. You'll find it quite easy after reading this, I myself made the way from having to fear certain AIs to playing with an Empire defended by 3 Warriors .

1. Worst Enemy FTW!!!: I doubt there is anyway to avoid this, but at some point in time, we would probably trade with someone's worst enemy. Anyway to improve these relationships so the AI doesn't start plotting?

Worst enemy is one of the most annoying features imo. You deal with it in that way, that you:

• Try to not trade with WEs
• When you really need a trade, make it balanced, i. e. pay gold or get gold, put revolutions on the table, etc. . The more balanced a trade is, the less likely it is, that you'll get diplomatic maluses, and, the more the game advances, the more likely it is that you get diplomatic maluses, so early trades are ok, later you have to be more careful.
• You have to watch the WE-Status closely. Close borders when someone becomes the WE of someone, open up again when he's not anymore, trade techs for free to all WEs as early as possible in the game to get +4 for Fairtrade, with +4 you normally get the AI to pleased and don't have to fear it that much (only some AI can DoW at pleased) .

2. Open Borders: I'm usually hesitant to open borders only for the reason that the AI can be a real douchebag and start marching their settlers through my lands to found a settlement in my back yard. Unfortunately I do know I need Open Borders if I plan to spread my religion (which has been my new strategy to be an AP powerhouse)

I had to learn it by someone I don't like, but AI doesn't march "through" your borders with Settlers, it does so with Galleys transporting Settlers, but not with Settlers itself. Try to close the cultural border asap, close Borders only if you want to block Galleys or if someone is WE.

You also don't need open Borders to spread your Religion, at least not for auto-spread. You need an active Trade-Network, which is most easily aquired with the research of Sailing and connecting your cities to rivers on possibly the ocean (you don't have to build a road to the ocean, you just need to fogbust the river that flows into it and the coast, so build an exploring Scout and Workboat) .

3. Resources: First off I'd like this to be cleared up; Do I need more than 1 of a resource in my empire or should I sell off the excess to the AIs? Are there any resources I should never trade to the AI? (ie: Strategic resources)

You not even "need" 1 ressource for your empire, as long as it's small. Watch that your cities are healthy and happy, and trade everything above that. Try to get good trades, like if you have Forges, get Gold for Sugar, giving you 2 Happiness while you only loose 1. Trade Happiness Ressources with higher priority than Healthiness, because AI is more likely to run into Unhealthiness than Unhappiness, just like you.

Strategic Ressources I would only trade with AIs I'm very close with, and even then only if I need something valuable from them, like if I have no Iron, but I got Copper and Horses. Don't forget, an AI having no access to Strategic Ressources can build not much more than Archers (later Riflemen, at that point Iron doesn't matter any more) , so it's weak. Enable it only to get strong if you're 100% sure that that AI won't use it's Strikeforce on you (i. e. friendly status) .

An exception is, when you deal weapons to inferiors who are in war. Like that, you can equal chances and cause heavy losses to the superior AI only by trade, Ivory is perfect for this as War Elephants are very strong for a long time, let both AIs take themselves apart while you watch and cherry-pick one once it is weak enough.

4. Technology: I feel this is the area I need the most improvement. I am so paranoid at giving away techs to the AI because I feel, by giving the AI certain techs, they may find a way to get a head of me (ie: Getting to Liberalism, getting ahead in military, or accumulating a super score). What are some tips to follow when trading tech in order to get the best return on investment? Also, what techs are more valuable to AIs than other techs? If all the AIs are lacking a tech that I have a monopoly on and I go ahead and trade the tech to one of the AI, should I trade it to all the other AIs since the AI have a secret love pact between each other, forcing them to be friendly and trade with each other? Any techs I should hold off on trading? (ie: Military Techs, Philosophy/Education(before getting Liberalism), Replaceable Parts, etc) Is it a good idea to invest some beakers into a tech before trying to trade for it from the AI?

Ok, to get this right, you have to learn about AIs. Search for Kossins Signature and download "Civilization Data.rar" , open "DanF's complete XML's" and look at the value "iTechTradeKnownPercent" or similar. This tells you when an AI will trade your Tech with others without being friendly. Note that friendly status overrides this, AIs friendly to each other trade anything anytime (except if they try to build a Wonder, then you get the answer "We have our reasons" ) and this is also true for you, if you have an AI on friendly, it behaves like Mansa Musa (in Techtrade, his value is 0, he trades everything with everyone, he's "The Tech-Whore" ) .

I. e. , Lizzy will hold back Techs until lots of Civs know them, she has a high value of iTechTradeKnownPercent, Willem otoh is willing to trade a tech when only few know it. Trade to those that will hold it back if you can choose, if you trade to Willem, Mansa or others like them, you can also trade to everyone in the same turn.

To win Liberalism you should hold back Paper aswell as Education. Check the Trade-Advisor every turn so that you know when those techs are discovered by others, by not trading them but having them, you can block the AI for some centuries and lock them onto Techs like Nationalism and Astronomy, but this doesn't hold forever. Know when your "Education-Block" breaks and be rdy for it, research Lib till 1 turn before it's finished, once the block breaks, complete it.

You should have absolutely no problem to stay ahead in Technology on your lvl, read guides on Hybrid-Economy to improve your Tech-rate. Learn to use Binary Research, but be careful with demands from the AI, a denied demand can lead to war. Note though, that pleased AI can only beg, not demand, so you don't have to fear denying them, you will get -1 for that, but with +4 from Fairtrade shortly after Alpha, +2 from Ressource-Trade, +1 for prolonged freedom and +2 for open Borders you should be able to compensate this.

Also, hold your Monopoly as long as possible, unless you have more than one Monopoly. Try to get like 3-7 Techs for one, again, check the Trade-Advisor every turn to see when you loose your Monopoly, then trade to everyone the AI is friendly with, and if those are enough, trade ot everyone else following what you've learned above.

In general, trading Techs fastens up the tempo, this can be to your advantage when you want to reach something as far away as Medicine i. e. as early as possible (if you play for Score for example) but your units will obsolete faster the more you trade, so conduct each trade with care.

5. Declaration of War: How much should I be willing to spend to get an AI to goto war with another AI?

Again it's in Kossins Signature. Look either at the "Bastard-Chart" for an incomplete list, or at DanFs complete XMLs and look at the values for "NoWarProbs" to learn which AIs can DoW at which lvl. In general, you're safe from everyone who's friendly to you, those cannot DoW you, lot's of AIs who're pleased also can't, but there are the Backstabbers like Cathy, Willem, Qin Shi Huang or Asoka. Know your enemies.

Bribing AIs vs AIs is often a good thing, but you have to be careful again. Once AIs are at war, they're much more likely to get a pain in your neck with stupid requests, let them develop their wars themselves, try to be friends with as many as possible, download BUG and BULL, bribe against the ones you see a Fist-Icon shown (also known as WHEOOHRN = We have enough on our hands right now, a status that can also be seen in the Diplomacy Screen) and that you fear are coming for you (i. e. you denied their demand -> WHEOOHRN, now AI is coming for you 100%, or you have a broad border with someone and your relations are not good -> WHEOOHRN, great chances AI is coming for you) .

Learn that declarations have nothing to do with your power-rating, you're as safe with 3 Warriors as you are with 30. (99% true, if you reach 1.5 - 2 times of the AIs power, it cannot DoW you, but that's more power than you'll probably be able to reach. )

Thank you for the assistance. As I stated, Technology trading is probably the area I need the most work in.

Np. If you got further questions, feel free to ask.

Greetz, Sera.

[EDIT]

We almost wrote the same lymond .

 

[coanda]

Two good answers to your questions already. I'll just touch a general point related to diplomacy...

You can get 80% of the way to good diplomacy just by not being prideful. Be willing to accept someone else's religion (instead of founding your own, give in to most gold/tech demands, and decide whether to accept a trade not by whether it's "fair" but by whether it helps you more than it hurts you. Doing those 3 simple things, plus keeping an eye out for opportunities to tech/resource trade, will get you to Pleased status with most of your neighbors in most of your games.

 

[Gumbolt]

1. Worst enemy can often be got rid of by getting an Ai to +3-4 diplomacy. E.g gift techs till +4 trade bonus. Adopting your neighbours religion is often a quick way for this. Sometimes staying out of the religion is easiest way. Each game is different.

2. Open borders are good. Over time you can get +1-2 diplo bonus and try to get an AI to friendly. Yep Ai rarely cross culture areas to build cities.

3. Yep resources are great for trading for gold. You only need enough to keep your people happy and healthy. Trading resources also helps get you diplo bonuses.

4. The worst enemy from trades is normally down to religion or trading with An AI someone is at war with. As stated above keep trades fair. There are times when trading with a worst enemy can help you if it causes Ai conflict. Sometimes trading for techs is a useful way to fill the bottom of the tech tree. While you focus on edu/lib the AI will tech machinery,feud, monarchy and a raft of other techs for you. Also by time 4-5 Ai have the techs they become cheaper for you.

5. DOW. Remember if 2 Ai are fighting eachother they are not planning a war with you. Most Ai are peaceful at pleased. +3-6 diplomatic wise. Sometimes a little world war helps you reach your goal. An Ai will find it hard to fight you and his neighbour.

Overall you should always abuse diplomacy especially if sat between a bunch of war mongers. That being said don't be afraid to tech deep and cut down the Ai with curs.

 

[Handel]

Is there an updated list of the "backstabbing bastards"? The one I have (and find through search) is from Warlords and is missing some of the leaders.

 

[coanda]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=345910
One list, with annotations about leader personality by some of the more colorful characters.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=309300
Another list, with information about how backstab-prone leaders are (but you also have to consider how likely the are to plan war generally when deciding who is a threat).