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Diplomacy gripe: "We see your troops on our borders"

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Pinstar, Sep 27, 2010.

  1. Strumpet

    Strumpet Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    11
    You were cornered diplomatically by a superior intellect.

    Sure, if this was a real-time strategy game, you could have declared war by actually attacking with your units. But it is not. It was her turn, and she had the initiative. Civ5 will never be an RTS.

    This thread has gone from making me laugh to making me a bit sad. Is this why AIs in many games are being "dumbed down"? Is the human ego unable to accept being defeated by a video game?

    Honestly, had this same thing happened to me, I would have come here to post about how cool it was that the computer showed a bit of ingenuity, even bordering on sneaky!
     
  2. Fabien

    Fabien Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
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    133
    Location:
    Switzerland
    I think the way this is modelled is fine. I didn't know that they get the initiative, but it actually makes a lot of sense. It actually mirrors a players behaviour in a multiplayer game, as you're not going to watch and marvel when someone is massing units at your border.

    Does anyone know if there are any effects, if you you say that you're just passing through and don't declare war afterwards?
     
  3. Pinstar

    Pinstar Ringtailed Regent

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
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    Location:
    Upstate NY
    In my first game, I did happen to have a bunch of troops lining up to attack Catherine, but Elizibeth thought I was going to strike her...so she gave me the "why are you massing troops" I told her I was passing through and didn't declare on her at all in that game, and I got no other diplomatic consequences other than those from declaring on Catherine proper. Thought, after I took out Cathrine, I was called a warmonger, but that is a properly earned title.
     
  4. drubell

    drubell Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2010
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    513
    I really like this feature. I came across it first when I was playing a duel map for the Alexander conquest achievement. I took my horses to Paris and as I was positioning my army around his capital, Napoleon tells me that I worry him. I told him I was just passing through and then declared on the next turn. He told me that my betrayal would be heard around the entire world!

    Not only does it provide some realism, but it's a great AI mechanic because otherwise, the AI doesn't realize you're plotting a secret war against them. If it was a human player they'd figure it out when they saw a bunch of forces surrounding your capital ;p

    Besides, when (if) the AI gets a little better I'd prefer to let enemy troops straggle outside of the city to die after declaring before rushing the capital. If the AI gets some of the more defensive social policies, it could get a lot more difficult to take a city because of all the defense buffs units could potentially have (Oligarchy 33% in capital, Nationalism 25% in friendly territory). Better to fight those units on the open field!
     
  5. duxup

    duxup Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2001
    Messages:
    385
    I like that system. Civ's diplomacy has / is a bit wonky but that manner of questioning your intentions seems entirely fair and logical.


    If you wanted the initiative you should have taken it and declared war on your turn. You handed it to your opponent.
     
  6. Schalke 04

    Schalke 04 Knappe

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2002
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    Location:
    Münster, Germany
    Well, I disagree with you on this. I think it is good that the AI is capable of sensing you are going to attack. For example: If you see, that a huge amount of units is approaching your borders, you will assume that there is some bad intention going with it. Well, the AI is assuming exactly the same! I think of it as a progress for AI-calculations. Nothing to be fixed at all.

    You now have to decide to reveal your "plans", or to take a diplomatic hit if you're denying it. Perfect system for me. Next time you will have to assemble a better military or go firstly on a short time defence to counter the initiative attack, before you go to the intended offense.
     
  7. The Leviathan

    The Leviathan Warlord

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    Location:
    Massachusetts, US
    Ding Ding Ding
     
  8. Scramble

    Scramble Warlord

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    Canada
    I love that the AI does that! It is very strong behavior. The only thing I would like to change about this is to allow YOU as the human player to ask the AI a similar question, so they need to decide whether to take the diplo hit or to lose the initiative. Maybe if it could only be asked once every 10 turns so that you cannot spam it.
     
  9. MickyLuv

    MickyLuv Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    44

    This.

    It would appear that having the strategic subtlety of a breeze-block through the jewelers window is not the way to go anymore.

    Good feature.
     
  10. Oneluv

    Oneluv Warlord

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    Location:
    Between the Doviello and the D.B.S
     
  11. dannythefool

    dannythefool King

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    I don't really care if you reload since it's your game and your fun, but what would you have done if the AI in this game did not have the capability to ask about your troops and would instead declare war outright?
     
  12. charon2112

    charon2112 King

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    May 8, 2009
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    So let me get this straight. On the AI's turn she asked "are you gonna attack me?"...you said "yes.", then she attacked you (still on her turn). This just sounds like good AI to me.

     
  13. ChaplainDMK

    ChaplainDMK Warlord

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    I like when they do that, but I just wish they would allow us to do the same. There needs to be alot of other diplomacy options then just peace war and trade/demand.
     
  14. charon2112

    charon2112 King

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    as there is now, there's considerably more diplo options than in Civ IV, in that game you could trade techs, resources, open borders...that's about it. In V they've added different pacts you can enter into, which adds to the depth...
     
  15. brento1138

    brento1138 O' Mighty CivII Warrior

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    I agree with another poster that this makes the game more realistic. Normally, a nation wouldn't build a ton of troops, another nation says "Hey, wassup!?" and when you say "Oh nothing!" and invade, it's not like the world is going to accept that!!!

    So, Civ 5 gets a big awesome nod of goodness.

    Here's what I like to do now. I like to declare war, and not go into their borders at all. Instead, I lure in their army, so that my archers and city can bombard them. Then my troops go in and slice them to pieces. I do this a few times. Then they have very few soldiers left. That's when I launch my assault on them, and take their city. :)
     
  16. DalekDavros

    DalekDavros Prince

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    If you're building up troops on the border and refuse to talk about why, I'd say that that qualifies as a declaration of war in all but name. I wouldn't mind if they added a "refuse to talk" option, but it shouldn't be a way to magically avoid diplomatic choices. Rather, it should act exactly as if you'd chosen the worst diplomatic option available. Because that's exactly what you'd be doing.
     
  17. Surgeon

    Surgeon Warlord

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    154
    You don't make sense. You were completely about to invade, she called you on it, you lied and now everyone hates you. It's completely how its supposed to work!

    Worst complaint thread ever!:eek:
     
  18. Tarkeel

    Tarkeel Imperial

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    Jun 27, 2003
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    Norway
    The issue isn't really that the AI does this, but that you can't do it to the AI.
    When I see the AI massing troops at my borders, I would want to force the same upon him: Either be hit by a crippling first strike, or have his reputation ruined.
     
  19. Auncien

    Auncien Prince

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    Feb 23, 2010
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    Just put them one hex out from the border. The AI won't even see them. Honestly, this 'make the AI more human' stuff would be great if it weren't so easily exploitable.
     
  20. falconne

    falconne meep

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    Nov 24, 2005
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    Location:
    New Zealand
    Huh... so the AI can be smart occasionally. Shame on you for complaining about being outsmarted though.
     

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