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Diplomacy in Civ V is Excellent

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Öjevind Lång, Jan 22, 2011.

  1. Treso

    Treso Warlord

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    The diplomacy have enhanced. Is there some flaws? Yes.

    But they act like human players. We are always backstabbers, selfishes and try to use the civs as we like.

    They do the same for us. We get mad when a Civ just settle a city where we would like to settle. When they get resources, are expanding to much, are building a military etc.
     
  2. Except we don't ALL act that way to all players. In civ 4, I actually acted nicely towards friends, especially Willem or Elizabeth, and I'd have appreciated a system in which gifts and cooperation were better implemented. I was actually looking forward to seeing more cooperation in civ 5, because the highest level of that in civ 4, permanent alliance, reduced the AI ally to a puppet.

    And I always avoided going to war against civs which were friendly towards me, even lost a game because of that, but in civ 5, I don't have to take care of these things, because all leaders seem to be selfish hypocrites regardless of how friendly you act.

    Anyway, there are definitely good points to the new diplo system, but to say that it mimics humans because humans are always dishonest seems a bit too much.
     
  3. Monthar

    Monthar Emperor

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    I don't want to gain favor from a shared war like we did in previous versions. However, if we share a war with an AI, that AI should not penalize us with the warmongering for that war, even if we capture and/or raze every city we can from our mutual enemy. Yet, in the current state of the game, we do get branded as a warmonger by our temporary ally for that joint war, which is just plain stupid.
     
  4. Sometimes, you were going to attack anyway, so you shouldn't get points for every shared war, but how about those wars in which an AI is attacked and asks you to attack their attacker... you know... if these things ever happened in civ5 :)? I would like to get diplo points for that, at least, something similar to how it happens with CS now, if a CS is attacked, you gain influence for each enemy unit you kill, perhaps something similar should be possible for the main civs as well?
     
  5. elthrasher

    elthrasher Revcaster

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    I agree it's not hard or unfair, but I can't fathom why this feature was introduced into the game. They program an AI that will try to trick us by scowling with the word Friendly on the screen. So actually, the AI isn't really trying to trick anyone. He's visibly angry. It's that Friendly word! How can the word Friendly be so unfriendly?

    Um...whatever. The point is if you've played more than one game, you will recognize that scowling + Friendly = not actually friendly and never, ever be tricked again so long as you may live.

    So what's the point? Immersion? Can't be. It's not immersive to have words floating in the air. Make it difficult for the player? Can't be. It's not difficult at all, as explained above. So why? Why does this feature exist? Either don't bother tricking me or make an actual effort. I don't care which!
     
  6. Treso

    Treso Warlord

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    The major flaw IMO is that the AI are never happy with us. They always and almost only get pissed.
    They get pissed if we settle cities, build wonders, build military, if we kick an AI face, if we do nothing and etc.

    The only thing I see that makes AI happy is making pacts of friendship. But it makes one AI happy and all the other get pissed with you becouse you have a new friend.
     
  7. uncarved block

    uncarved block Prince

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    Since the inevitable comparison seems to be with Civ4- since the Civ3 AI would, IIRC, DoW you for looking at them funny- I would say there's a few things that I don't miss, and some I'd like to see added if possible.

    What don't I miss from Civ4 diplomacy? Well, Monty would be a good place to start, since none of the new AIs are so crazy that they determine a huge chunk of your game just by being in it. Dunno if that's diplomacy in the strictest sense, but thought it worth mentioning. What else? Not having to worry about which AI will backstab at what level of friendliness. Wont' miss having your status with a neighbor go up- sometimes dramatically- because you wiped an AI off the map. Rewarding genocide seems a bit iffy, even just as a game mechanic, and having your next victim get happy after the last unit vanished almost felt like an exploit. Permanent alliances are another thing I liked, but have to admit is probably better left out; if memory serves, most of the top players here considered it an exploit, and disabled the option in their games. What else? Again, it may not be strictly diplomacy, but having an AI go into full vengeance mode when you took a city or three is refreshing. And I for one don't miss religion a bit, but this may put me in a minority.

    So what's to like or dislike about Civ5 diplomacy? I like that the AI will notice that you're pulling ahead of them, but dislike that they still won't do much more about it than pout. I actually like that you get penalties for warring, because it cuts into the huge advantage the human player has, just a little, but not a lot. I don't like that you get the warmonger penalty for joining an AI in war, but that seems easy enough to fix. A few more ways to get positive influence would be nice, besides the worker/settler thing, but I don't want to see something that's too easily gamed. I would like to see espionage come back somehow, because it was a nice supplement to diplomacy in Civ4, allowing a middle ground between war and peace. But again, this may be a minority position, especially if Sitting Bull always seemed to be in your Civ4 games.

    Is the diplomacy excellent? Hardly, but as a veteran of the game from Civ2 on, I can say that I like it fairly well, and see how a few tweaks could make it really good. There are certainly other parts of the game that deserve more attention by patchers, IMHO.
     
  8. juckie

    juckie Warlord

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    That was awesome diplomacy, truly based on some merits more than "you are close to me".

    If the best reason to go to war was close borders, than I have no idea why the world has such a great number of countries. Yes, wars have been fought over that. But that should not be one of the only reasons, which Civ V "diplomacy" seems to imply.

    Some based on the Social Policies would be awesome.
     
  9. bryanw1995

    bryanw1995 Emperor

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    the diplo has definitely improved post-patch, but I don't agree with some of the diplo settings. shouldn't going to war and/or wiping out a rival get you bonus "friendly" points with an ai, especially if said ai asked you to help him out in a war in the first place?
     
  10. blasto

    blasto Prince

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    Not really a complaint, but I would like to see more options in the diplomacy window. I would like to have more options to piss the AI off, to get them to declare war on me. I think there should be positive, neutral and negative responses to all corrspondence. The possibility for real fun here is missed. They could have put a thousand seriously fun dialog options in there that could randomly generate for each "high, medium and low" option. For example, on the low side, to piss the AI off, your option in the dialog window should populate out of a huge pool of fun possible responses.

    Alternatively, the option to brown nose the AI other than asking to be friends would be cool too.
     
  11. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    I completely agree with you. But I do think diplomacy in Civ V is an improvement on the one in Civ IV.
     
  12. ChuckVader

    ChuckVader Chieftain

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    I agree with a previous poster that your SPs should have some impact on diplomacy – AIs with the same SPs should tend to be friendlier. Certain differing SPs should be a diplomatic hit, such Freedom vs Autocracy.
     
  13. Badtz Maru

    Badtz Maru King

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    The Civ4 AI lies too, with the hidden modifiers that can make a hostile civilization look friendly. Digging through XML and playtesting has made those invisible modifiers about as secret as the visible ones, but for a while people didn't understand why a civilization that supposedly would not declare at Pleased would attack at Friendly.
     
  14. Uniform Sierra

    Uniform Sierra Warlord

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    There's nothing you can do. You can be friends for hundreds of turns with your neighbor, but when they're army grows they eventually attack you with the typical, "Ha! I've pretended to be your friend this whole time, now I'll crush you!" or something along those lines.

    Pretty pathetic words used to cover up lame diplomacy.
     
  15. ironic_lettuce

    ironic_lettuce Warlord

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    The thing that winds me up about the diplomacy is the ridiculous requests that other civs sometimes make of you. For example, in my last game I offered silver to Washington, in exchange for his gems (we both had one spare) and he refused, and when I asked him what he wanted he asked for ALL of my luxury resources - even the ones I didn't have going spare! Like 7 or 8 luxuries for his one!!
     
  16. CaptainKapow

    CaptainKapow Immortal

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    Diplomacy still feels very shaky in this game. I still notice a lot of seemingly irrational behavior amongst the civs.

    Ex 1:
    Arabia and Germany just finished a war and made peace. On the very next turn they signed a research agreement.

    Ex 2:
    I curb-stomped Hiawatha in a war, but his two remaining cities were far away so I made peace with Hiawatha and immediately called my close, personal friend Caesar and got him to declare on Hiawatha to finish him off. The very next turn Hiawatha pops up and wants to make a declaration of friendship with me.

    I think they're going in the right direction, but I definitely would not call it "excellent."

    I also wish that when an AI moves a large group of forces near one of my cities I could also get the option to call him/her out on it. At least then if they make nice and declare anyway I'd like the rest of the world to see them as a backstabber.
     
  17. Aoxomoxoa

    Aoxomoxoa Prince

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    The one I love is "join us in this war" so you do, and you take a couple cities and the Civ who asks you to join the war takes a city and the attacked Civ is wiped out, then you get the 'bloodthirsty ways,etc.' and won't do snot with you from the Civ who asked you to join in the first place.
     
  18. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    Yes, well, by joining in aggressive war you have revealed yourself as someone who might very well attack *them* the next time. Chumming up top a country through a war and then backstabbing it is an age-old exploit in all Civ games. I've seen countless posts where people brag about doing that.

    My experience is that you get away with one single bite if you manage to stay on good terms with the other civs. After that they keep theier eyes on you, and quite right too.
     
  19. 1. Not all of us do that. Some of us play based on our RL values... to some extent, I mean, if you play a civ game, you are kind of an immortal dictator, we'll just skip over that :). I for one never choose autocracy, piety or order and never backstab. Of course, in civ 5, the game itself offers me a good reason to take land away from everyone because even if I don't backstab, I eventually get backstabbed. In civ 4 I never attacked a leader who was friendly towards me and almost always offered them help when they asked it.

    2. Even if we do backstab, wouldn't it be a fairer idea if all the countries hated you after you did the deed, maybe join in a common war against you? In civ 4, you could keep all AIs off of you with the right incentives, why not have a few situations in which all AIs turn on you regardless of how you play the diplo scene, backstabbing being one of those, but allow for an actual diplo game otherwise?
     
  20. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    WTF?? There are other games, esp. children's games, where you get to dress up and think you are a king or a knight or something and with simple, non-benevolent rules.
     

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