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[NFP] Diplomacy Penalties for Capitals

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Ashmantious, Sep 27, 2020.

  1. Ashmantious

    Ashmantious Chieftain

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    So I'm playing Gaul on Dramatic Ages and enjoying the run through so far. The Eubrones trait is very powerful especially in the early game. I typically play a peace-oriented game. My military is big enough to deter and defend against an aggressor. I take cities if the other Civ starts it and if the city location really helps me. If I can flip cities with culture, I take them for sure. In this game, I had Sparta spawn next to me. After a not-so-surprising declaration of a Surprise War on me by Gorgo, I wiped her off the map after absorbing her initial push and then taking all her cities because her military was gone and she couldn't hold up to my counter-strike.

    After the war, I noticed my diplomacy score per turn was a negative number. I had forgotten that one of the updates this year puts a significant per-turn penalty for possessing an enemy capital. I remember reading about it but frankly forgot about it because it doesn't come into my gameplay. Sparta was to my south and after eliminating her, no civs nearby in that part of the map. Suleman was to my North West. We were on friendly terms but Suleman was getting all he could handle from Shaka on his other border. My guess is because of the war with Shaka, there was little internal development going on. Suleman's cities start going into revolt, and I move my veteran army in to get some more experience and pick up some easy cities. Since they are Free Cities, no grievances so no problem in taking them.

    Suleman gets eliminated because Istanbul goes into revolt and becomes a Free City. I move in to take Istanbul and I'm pretty shocked to find I'm getting a second penalty for possessing a second capital. I understand why they put in a penalty for taking capitals but it doesn't seem right to get hit with one if the city flips to you or you take it as a Free City. I don't go for Domination Wins but it seems to me, with this new penalty, if you want to go for Domination, you just kiss diplomacy goodbye. I don't see how you maintain diplomacy points if you have more than one capital. It seems like if you are going to expand, you need to surround capitals, let them become Free Cities, and basically leave them as a city-state.
     
  2. Ashmantious

    Ashmantious Chieftain

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    A little bit later in the game, the Hungarian Capital revolted and became a Free City. I left it alone but my loyalty pressure caused the Free City to ask to join my Civilization. It's going to hit me with a third penalty for possessing a capital. I'm going to refuse the city just to avoid the penalty.
     
  3. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Prince

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    The penalty is just poorly balaced nonesense in my opinion. Which i have repeated to extenuation.

    It honestly I feel like it removes all freedom and forces the player to commit to being a full warmonguer or full pacifist with almost no middle ground.

    The biggest nonesenses of this implementation (besides loyality flipping) are that happens in the ancient age too, before diplomacy and grievances apply. And that it is the only permanent penalty of the game. Which totally negates the entire diplomatic design. I will quote here from the Civilization VI wiki, about the core design of diplomacy, which is in line with the public declarations of the developers so far:
    • "The logic is that at the beginning of civilization everything is wild, communication between young nations is poor, and fighting with others is considered a matter of survival, not of aggression."
    • "For leaders with these agendas, warmongering is considered a most honorable thing, and worthy of praise, not condemnation!"
    • "Diplomacy is the art of making relations with other AI players. It's a mechanic that evolves as eras pass, from a state of near constant warfare in ancient times, to more civil interactions in the mid- and late game."
    • "As in the real world, leaders tend to gradually forget the transgressions of the past."
    • "It preserves the diplomatic tendency of diminishing tolerance towards aggressive behavior with the coming of modern times."
    • "Relationships between civilizations are complex. They're affected by your behavior towards the other party and by the goals of your rivals"
    I guess not anymore. It seems that Firaxis just ignored its entire design philosophy and said: who cares about consistency or balance. Lets abandon the core design of every mechanic in the game so far.

    Anyway, it seems that a lot of people is happy about this penalty removing the hability to win a Diplomatc Victory when you already won a Domination one (which is a non issue for me) at the cost of completely breaking diplomacy (jmho).

    I know that this is not big deal for most people, but for me it just removed most of the fun I was having with the game. To the point I did not even tried out the last two game modes I bought with the NFP. Im unsure if i will take the game again, even if there is a mod to fix it now.

    After playing all civ games from 1 to 6 for an insane ammount of hours. This was the moment I realized the game has too many issues for me, and that I was not really excited for the game or the franchise anymore.

    Im glad that the game is a hit, and that so many people likes it. To me, it is just not the case and I simply cant overlook all the shortcuts that had turned Civ in a shallow disconnected and inconsistent mess of mechanics.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  4. Jaybe

    Jaybe civus fanaticus Supporter

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    Look, if you are going to take a bunch of foreign capitals and you want the diplo points too, you just have to make the effort to get them.
    City state suzerainty is one each. ...
     
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  5. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Prince

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    I understand what you say, but as you did not adress any of my reasons, the point remains that this mechanic contradicts the entire desing of the game so far.

    Im not opposed to the fact that taking capitals or wiping out civs should have diplomatic consequences, but the current implementation of the penalty has no resemblace to how diplomacy works, and is lazy, arbitrary, unbalaced and simply awful.

    Also, what you say is not true imho. If you take 2 capitals (which is not unreasonable for any non pacifist game, and usually happens early game) you will need to be suzerain of 8 city states and have an alliance for the entire game to just cancel the penalty. Is obvious that the system is broken no matter how much effort a regular player is able to put.

    The problem is not making DV harder. Is negating the WC, competitions and DF economy almost entirely. Being a non pacifist removes you from these systems and forces you to ignore them. WC should not be just a gimmick to earn DV points. And the system is already bad enough as it is to make the player endure all the voting without any real hability to make any decission.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  6. EthiOPia

    EthiOPia Chieftain

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    You can always buy diplo favour from ai before you want to use them. I think penalty is fair way to punish taking capitols(you shold liberate a capitol and not take for yourself when you take it from
    another civ /free city).Altough The number of minus diplo favour could be lowered by each era/50 turns that passed since you captured a city to make more sense.
     
  7. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Prince

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    I kind of agree, except that penalty for flipping capitals and ancient era penalties should also be removed and wiping out civs should be punished and who are you taking the city from considered.

    Here is a "crazy" idea. Instead of adding nonesense DF penalties, integrate the system properly in the diplomacy. Having negative effects tied to grievances and positive effects via city state suzerainship and good relations with civs. Which seems like the idea they had to begin with, but abandoned mid-way in favor of a lazy and redundant bonus/penalty system that has little to no relation with the game diplomacy but serves the same purpose, for no other aparent reason than saving dev resources with a cheap solution.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  8. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    In fact they're quite easy to overcome.

    1: Pagoda provides +1 favor per turn, if the Civ has 5 cities then you get the 5 back as you build pagodas.

    2: Usually every civ will have its Amani and gain suzerain of 1 CS. Amani has *2+4 envoy so very hard to take it down. After eliminating the Civ you can easily transfer it under your suzerain, and get 1 diplo favor from that. 2 if you have Osg, 4 combined with the policy.

    3: Liberating CSs will give you 100-300 instant diplo favors. As AIs are good at attacking CSs, some of them may capture 1~2, and liberating these CSs also give you diplo favors.(and also per turn favor from suzerain)

    Not a big issue actually. The best way to achieve diplo victory is still through domination. Not mentioning you get 50 diplo favors from researching future civic every turn.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  9. Siddharth Venkatesh

    Siddharth Venkatesh Chieftain

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    You also get emergencies declared on you constantly if you warmonger so that's 100 favor a pop.
     
  10. Jkchart

    Jkchart Emperor

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    Agreed.

    If you play your cards right, even with two capitals taken you can still have a decent surplus of favor.

    Especially moreso with the changes from adding the Diplo Quarter.
     
  11. Koljar

    Koljar Chieftain

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    Just won a game I started as peaceful domitation (English Eleonore, Pangea map, 4 extra civs, max city states, marathon speed, some lower difficulty tho). Goal was something casual on the side while rewatching "The Expanse", lol.
    I had every tech and civic researched and won a diplo game despite me owning 5 former capitals. I had the amenity building for my religion and was still in the negatives with most cities for most of the game (however I did not bother limiting their pop and just let them grow).
    So: Low diplo favor income but still enough to throw in votes in my favor...

    There are ways to counter the diplo penalty - buildings, souzeranity etc. - not easy but at some point I would have run out. I only had +2 diplo points/round even tho i was souzerain in 9 (ish) city states, had build the full diplo quater. You will at some point run out of diplo favor (I was at 0 for some time inbetween ;) ) but it's gonna last a while with all those new sources in the game.

    I won a diplo victory on accident because I forgot to stop the production of the statue of liberty I had started in some low production city while I was still <10 diplo points.
     
  12. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    I just find ot weird that it's just for the capital. Take 20 other cities from one civ and it's fine but just taking the capital makes you a pariah.
    Minus 1 for each foreign city would feel more logical to me.
    Loyalty flipping is another thing. I agree it can feel of but you can of course use it as an offensive weapon, even when not playing Eleanor.
     
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  13. Myomoto

    Myomoto Prince

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    The penalty for capitals is a really hamfisted bandaid fix. What they should rather do is give you a penalty based on lifetime grievances caused (which still decays).

    I don't think Turkey is getting restricted voting rights at the UN because they're based in former Constantinople :mischief:
     
  14. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    It should decay over time. Perhaps dropping by 1 each era. Eleanor should also not get it at all.
     
  15. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    As with many things, I like the idea, but not the implementation.

    I think it really should be variable starting with less of a penalty in the early ages (maybe even ramp up past -5 in modern ages), and decaying over time (perhaps 1 per age).
     
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  16. Uberfrog

    Uberfrog Deity

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    The DF penalty is a clunky fix, sure, and arguably should decay over time, but the idea that it’s a game breaking issue is just not true.

    As Lily says, there are more ways than ever to earn Diplomatic favour. Pagodas, the Diplomatic Quarter, City-States, liberating, emergencies.

    If you take a couple of capitals you are not out of the Diplomatic game for good. You just have to be savvy about how to actively get DF. Not to mention the benefits of having fewer rivals in the world congress...
     
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  17. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

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    There should be some connection among:

    - Captured capitals (since it´s a domination win condition)
    - Number of occupied cities
    - Number of razed cities
    - Number of converted holy cities (especially now with Byzantium)

    The penalty should be increasing with increasing number of conquests. Or percentually calculated of total number of religions/capitals etc. If we go the DF penalty, it could be -3 for the first one, -5 for second one, -7 for third or something like that.
     
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  18. Myomoto

    Myomoto Prince

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    Just base it on grievances. After all, grievances means you are unpopular, as a result your diplomatic clout should diminish. Grievances also decay automatically. Just make sure to keep grievances hold over after you wipe a civ.
     
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  19. EthiOPia

    EthiOPia Chieftain

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    You get minus Diplomacy favours for grievances.
     
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  20. Koljar

    Koljar Chieftain

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    I think the whole grieviance system could get a rework. Especially now with the dramatic ages mode.
    Gain/lose them based on meeting/missing AI agendas (in addition to those diplo points that have been there since the beginning and modify their will for cooperation concerning trades etc.), modified by stuff you do in the game (aid requests of all kinds and your reaction to them, chopping/harvesting vs. planting/CO2 storage (that lategame tech), religious actions/conversions, clearing barb camps near other civs, bonus points for cooperating with alliance partners and negatives for working agains them (e.g. spying)). Grievances should generally decay over time towards 0 (ppl forget both the good and the bad stuff someone did, not just while at peace with everyone) and they could then directly translate into loyality pressure during the afore mentioned dramatic ages part or simply dependant on the type of age you're in (maybe get a multiplier or so for that). Spys could get another task of generating these points.
    Oh yeah: Plus you get a malus for owning a city you did not found. The difficult part might be: Did you conquer it? Did you just take it over due to loyality? Was it originally conquered by another player and you just kept it instead of liberating it?

    Very many possibilities. All with the option of decay depending on the severity of the action.

    Might over all be too complicated to add this into the game now tho. No idea if my try of an explanation is understandable enough.
     

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