Diplomacy with King and other Europeans

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by Schmiddie, Apr 25, 2020.

?

I'd like to see more diplomacy options and actions in WTP

  1. Yes, this would enrich gameplay

    20 vote(s)
    95.2%
  2. No, I have enough to do with my own colonies.

    1 vote(s)
    4.8%
  1. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,517
    Location:
    Germany
    Hi Folks,

    One part of the game I'd like to get improved since Col 2 has been released is the deplomacy between

    - the Player and his king
    - the Player and the church (church implemented by RaR)
    - the Player and other European Powers (AI)
    - the Player and Natives (AI)

    Of course, the limited options are generally based on the uninspired vanilla game and the limited possibilities of the AI, but how great would it be if diplomacy could be improved and expanded much more. I assume it would - especially in the mid- and lategame - enrich the gameplay experience of WTP.

    I have in mind

    - Short-term alliances (maybe limited for a time period or until a concrete event is triggered like pease with another nation) with other powers or natives
    - Trade contracts with other European powers (AI)
    - Smuggle contracts with other European Nations
    - Trade of ships and goods with other European powers when a peace treaty is in place.
    - Exchange of specialists/colonists between Player and European nations due to Special events
    - (Secret) Military support (without declaring war) for other European powers or native nations if they are at war
    - More events that have influence on the relationships between player and AI
    - Reactions of the AI if player uses privateers or pirate ships against AI (positive reations of nations which have not been attacked and negative reactions of nations which have been attacked)
    - Appearance of trading companies on the american scene (maybe ship convoy under King's flag) which can be attached for a limited time period by privateers or pirate ships
    - Different further events with king and goverment (maybe also with king's of other nations, but this could be limited as far as Independence is not declared)

    What do you think?

    Regards

    Schmiddie
     
  2. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

    Joined:
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    Generally I agree, it would enhance gameplay to have more diplomacy and interaction between the players (Natives, other Europeans, King, Bishop). :thumbsup:
    (Although some of that is much more difficult than it sounds and could have massive side effects - e.g. "Secret Military Suppor" could be extremely difficult.)

    Problems:
    A) Time and effort - thus requireing motivation ... :c5unhappy:
    B) Most of that is also almost impossible to properly teach AI. (To use it properly as well.)
    C) It could potentially introduce further desynchs in Multiplayer. (Until we fully identify and solve their root cause.)

    It is as simple as this:

    A lot of features and improvements are still possible for WTP. :thumbsup:
    It is definitely not a matter of missing technical possibilities or lack of ideas.

    All it requires is somebody motivated and skilled enough to implement it ...
    But to be honest, the list of potential modders for that is still as small as it was half a year ago. :c5unhappy:
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2020
  3. modmod

    modmod Warlord

    Joined:
    May 2, 2021
    Messages:
    213
    Seems an old topic -> but worth to come "alive" again.

    Additional ideas:
    Ideas only-> yes
    Before someone says: Good if you implent. -> Cannot (needs programming -> I am no programmer)

    But hopefully a programmer likes it. -> Then probably gets implemented.

    I. Diplomatic system expansion:
    A.

    Certain (new) options triggered (becames available) only if:
    - certain levels of positive attitude reached
    (Yes there are something like that already in right now -> but present determinates the full action (can start or not) -> like can trade the map or not (don`t like you enought) or like another civilization more than you -> this determinates EXTRA possible answers in interactions.)
    - certain traits are present (in either side)
    - certain civics present
    - certain civeffects present
    - for certain civilizations (like Spain prefer to converse natives, while France less likely)

    B.
    Add default personality for civilizations (or also for groups as: Natives base, Colonial powers base)
    -> configurable in XML
    (civilizationinfos.xml ? -> well that is already massive... or new file)
    Also let the player slighly prioritize it before map starts -> or can be disabled for player (remains true for AI civilizations only, so player free to choose approach)
    Yes - sounds very much effort in first glance. :sad:
    Like:
    - how peaceful vs. warmongering (declare war/ join war/ offer-accept peace)
    - how dominant vs. cooperative (submissive?)
    - how greedy (wish to get presents (but also have more positive attitude if gets it)/ demand support/ tribute) vs. "donating" (offers presents, more likely accepts demands)
    - how trader vs. self-supplying (interested in trade/ bargains/ certain contracts)
    - religious vs "realist" (harder/ easier to convert/ have mission/ accept missionaries/ have attitude based on religion)

    -> All of the personality affects what AI do, or probably do. Accepts/ or not. How does it react for certain actions.

    II. Concrete diplomatic actions:
    For natives vs colonial powers, and colonial power vs. colonial power primary

    1. First contact (first tier):
    Instead of the now available "let be it peace between us"
    - friendly introduction (cc. the same as present)
    - rude introduction: something we not interested in you/ peace -> carries negative attitude
    - dominating/ submission/ conquer: also rude, but in a dominating manner, like nice new slaves -> near the negative attitude carries worry/ inspire more (the threatened) to join/ sopport war against the one
    - converse: we come to convert you for the true Catholic fate (for Spain for example) -> negative attitude, but modifiers for future mission success/ missionary survival/ converted natives threshols, etc...

    2. First contact (second tier):
    Looks like even at present the first gift is separated somehow -> but it is not obvious. As for me I always go to the gift section, and give natives some gold to boost starting attitude after the "let be it peace between us".
    So probably it can be separated as a second tier - first contact action, like:
    - offer first contact gift
    - demand first tribute

    3. Try to improve relations:
    Two civilizations talk, and try a better relationship politically (NOT with kings)
    - As partner (equal)
    -> can lead to positive attitude (or no change)
    - As the powerful (when you consider yourself more powerful)
    -> can lead to positive attitude (even gratitude) if the certain civilization is much weaker AND it is not against their personality -> but also can be catastrophic if they are against domination attepts (like declare war/ do it together with allies/ start intrigue against you)
    - As subordinate (when you consider yourself weak) -> lick ass basically
    -> when you are much weaker than the other (or not but submissive towards them/ or bewilder them with it`s baseless apperance (Maskirovka)) -> can lead to positive attitude, but also negative effects, like from then on more chance that civilization will demand support/ gifts from you

    4. Information from civilizations:
    Right now you can only ask about attitude towards other civilizations.
    This option let player to ask information, like:
    - with who (civilizations) are they in contact with
    - missions (are they have a mission with you/ other tribes)
    - are they at war (with anyone/ you/ with your friends)
    etc...
    Can ask it as:
    - ally/ friend
    - exchange for gold/ goods

    5. Make insult:
    Insult a civilization with for example:
    - weakness (your civilization such weak, just good for practice (to smash it)
    -> can lead to instant war
    BUT also
    -> 3. Try to improve relations: submission (depending strenght AND personality)
    -> to send gifts/ tribute
    - based on friends/ allies
    - based on wars (if in active war with X civilization)

    6. Intimidation:
    - We watch you: do not dare to intrigue/ be friendly with OUR enemies
    - We are strong – you are weak
    - Probably we will destroy you
    Which can be used for background diplomacy: what AI will do as diplomatic interactions with other AI/ you in future.

    7. Treaty:
    - Treaty of friendship and goodwill
    -> basically ink on paper but lead for + 1 attitude
    - Cultural exchange treaty
    -> can affect missions (converted natives arrival), slaves offered, braves offered, open up new diplomatic possibilities
    - Trade treaty
    - Economic treaty

    8. Alliance remake in levels:
    8.1: Non-agression pact
    8.2: Alliance
    8.3: Permanent alliance
    8.4: Primal alliance: just with ONE civilization which have a permanent alliance with you

    9. War levels remake:
    9.1: Neutral land conflict ("small war"):
    Make possible to attack units which are NOT inside the cultural borders of other nations. Predominantly agains: missionaries, scouts, workers far from borders, ships on "international waters".
    -> carries less malus in attitude, still cannot enter inside cultural borders, probably can be limited for X turns (about 10-30 sounds real)
    -> allies/ others may still enter normal war
    9.2: War
    Same as right now
    9.3: Promise of extinction in all-out war:
    No possibility for peace (means: permanent war). For balancing sound better if possible only between natives and colonial powers and NOT between colonial powers.

    10. Join war:
    - Join war against ONE particular civilization - which is already war with the one you actiually do the diplomacy
    - Join war against ALL civilizations - which is already war with the one you actiually do the diplomacy
    Reson: with this there are no need to be:
    allied,
    OR even in good relationship
    OR even possible when you two are also in war
    -> but for sure boost relationship
    "My enemy`s enemy is my friend." OR "Even if we are at war We have mutual enemies."
    Makes possible for example:
    Different native tribes probably war with each other BUT in joint war effort against a certain colonial power.

    11. Lie (or promote/ tell the truth) from a civilization (intrigue):
    Affect attitude between civilizations with intrigue.
    Probably if you tell the target believes it OR not. Depends on actions/ events, or you talk about it`s friend, enemy, etc...
    That civilization is:
    - wish to start a war with you
    - activelly prepares for war/ arms itself
    - threated your way of life (adds extra negative attitude for that entry)
    - frequently trade with your enemies (adds extra negative attitude for that entry)
    - wish to consume all land
    - is a treat for your XY ally
    - actually weak/ weaker than you
    - is a "good lad" my friend (ally), can be yours too
    - my trading partner, can be yours too
    etc...
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2021
  4. Uraeus

    Uraeus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2021
    Messages:
    19
    I vote yes. Very nice ideas (i'am not a programmer :bowdown:)
     

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