Diplomacy with the Anarchos

[Lanzelot]

Well, what are we trying to achieve? Getting a substantial tech lead as fast as possible. (And then taking advantage of it.) Now you are trying to dance on both weddings (which requires to give Rep to two parties). It might be "super-smart", but it can also get out of control easily...

Either the Eagles, or the Anarchos, but not both. And I say, the Eagles are more risky, because a) we don't know how their relation to the Küche is and b) they are in my opinion the stronger/more dangerous team. On the other hand, the Anarchos have no contacts yet, so if we tie them to us closely, and give them good reasons to be satisfied with us, they will stick to the alliance at least until the other continent is no longer a threat.

In any case: making an alliance and then "canceling" it at the right time is one thing. (I have no problem with that, the others will eventually do it as well.) But entering an alliance and already betraying it before it has started and risking to be caught in flagranti and then having both sides against us, is just plain unnecessary. And it doesn't even gain us that much that it would be worth the risk. A little gold, or 1-2 techs, so what? Not enough for playing hazard and putting a very substantial advantage at risk.

After the latest talks I do have the feeling the Anarchos can be relied on being a true research partner. It is their own interest to have a good cooperation with us, so they won't do anything to break it. And by the time they meet the others, the others will be so backwards, that they wouldn't have anything to offer them anyway.
Combine this with their good UU, which would really be good to cause trouble on the other continent early, while in a later age it is no longer dangerous. I would much rather have a war Cavalry against Hoplites, than finding out after cooperating for one and a half ages that the Eagles are Ottomans and facing Sipahis vs Muskets...

By the way, are we sure the Eagles are seafaring? They were the only ones who moved their settler, they could have moved it onto the ivory to get the higher commerce that Memento has seen?!

 

[Memento]

By the way, are we sure the Eagles are seafaring? They were the only ones who moved their settler, they could have moved it onto the ivory to get the higher commerce that Memento has seen?!

Thats not possible. If they settled on Ivory, we would 2nd by "Zufriedenheit".

 

[templar_x]

@ Lanzelot - they are not just "open" in my books. in one of the first posts to engage into a PEACEFUL COMPETITION, and then d7 lets us know that they do not believe in this and that war will happen.

i am leaving out, that we are kretins in their eyes and unable to compete with them...

i am well aware of the risks of my proposal. i even posted them myself... but i believe some of us want to play a game for fun, at least i do, and this will be more fun if a dangerous but potentially profitable move fails, than if i am stuck in a diplo horror dream with d7.

and if their english is not good enough for a dialogue, then it is even worse than I thought.

templar_x

 

[templar_x]

Ivan - which turn/year will we have Republic? The Anarchie needs to know for their MM...

t_x

 

[templar_x]

The save is there - the Anarchie has built a town in their 3rd ring!!!

t_x

 

[I. Larkin]

L, continue negotiation as normal. Conditions of Alliance are not good for us. We want trade without "veto", and if "veto" what conditions when veto may applied, get money for our WM, City near fish, and lot of other minor things. They must understand, that if they will insist they will not get republic and masonry.

 

[templar_x]

I fear, that is an impossible mission from where we stand now.

The conditions are not good, here I agree, but aside from another town site I do not see that such demands are not going anywhere. And the Rep-deal is already fixed.

templar_x

 

[I. Larkin]

OK, Rep deal "fixed", but we did not discuss conditions of gpt at the end of AA.
We also did not put proper agreement about Math. In principle Rep deal "not bad" itself, but if they will make us mad we can change our mind [theoretically...]. I do not understand why Lanzelot did not use this resource at negotiation.

 

[Memento]

Wir denken, daß sie Ottomanen oder Perser sind.

or France

Bronze, Eisen
Steinmetzkunst
Alphabet, Schrift
Keramik
Rad

and CB
after we meet them cb was cheaper= max 42 beakers

 

[templar_x]

Are you talking about the Techs which the Kueche have in your last post, Memento?

 

[Memento]

yes..

 

[templar_x]

@ Lanzelot - imo that was too much info for the Anarchos at once. Didn´t we announce to them that we give them the tech infos right before they need them = have Lit ready?

we are seriously becoming incredible: first we state that they get the intelligence from the other continent when the deal is done, and now we give them more than they had asked for for free? i am not against telling them, but i am against telling them everything in advance.

i respect that they are giving us techs in advance, like they did in the past already. but we should not forget that everything is about US giving them Republic in advance, which you hold so high when it goes about trades with the Eagles, but you do not seem to take it into account in our negotiations and trades with the Anarchie, even though it is so much more valuable for them (being miles away from getting it or another gov tech). it is not us who need to keep the other one happy so that those deals get executed! - but we 100% fail to have ever made that clear.

that is why i was posting a bit in the alliance thread btw, to help you out of that huge diplo hole a bit that we are in now.

templar_x

 

[Lanzelot]

I was trying to set a "clear signal" that we now mean it and are ready to cooperate on all fronts as good as we can. As you planned to betray them, I thought this was the best way to convince them of our seriousness. Give them something of real value, not something they can easily recognize as "empty message".

Also: I consider the deal as "done". And: they'll finish Lit next turn, so they need the tech information now.

 

[templar_x]

I am aware that diplo is difficult, and I concede that you are much better in it than I am.

However, as we made the deal that we give them the most important tech in the game in advance for a payment in the distant future, and we STILL need to ensure them how serious we mean it, then
- we have not been very successful with our diplo
- they are really no very sensible and useful partners.

I can say, that I believe that both is true.

But it cannot be changed now easily, but some day, and I mean NOW, we should start to change that.

They may start to change the 2nd issue a bit, and I see signs for that, but the first problem we have to work on ourselves. And in my eyes it is not the guys who always yield who are the best friends.

templar_x

 

[templar_x]

For the next answer we need to react to their counting of tiles.

Like, as you already had said, that we see that as naturally a Knights town site, and that we are delivering the intelligence for practically free, tell them where they can hope for an SGL...

For trades with the Eagles, we could openly ask them what they think about trading them Lit for MM. So we could try to disturb a possible or developing alliance over there, and gain possession of a useful tech.

templar_x

Edit: I see Lanzelot just posted that we can delay or negotiate this site. I completely disapprove of that.

 

[I. Larkin]

Edit: I see Lanzelot just posted that we can delay or negotiate this site. I completely disapprove of that.

So am I. With cold head I must say that this style of Lanzelot-Anarho relations annoys me a lot...
Instead of convince Anarhos to accept our conditions he press/bend us to accept their...
I want Diplomacy with the Anarchos will over ASAP...
EDIT:
First, I want stress in "negotiations" that our upper deals are "major" and "Alliance violation" does not mean, that REP-MA and NAP deals may be broken as a result.
Second, after reading of discussion with Translator I do not see, what benefits at all we may get from this "Alliance". They act like bandits from government who try to make nationalization of somebody business.
As I wrote already either they shut up or we "pretend stupid" and do what we want.
I see nothing wrong if Lanzelot will say:," sorry, team outvote me here, they do not want restriction of our freedom.
Alliance could not be sign in this form. Do we want joined research plan?"
[but befor he make this statement we must discuss it here]

 

[I. Larkin]

About masonry: I did not see any contract with Anarhos yet about that.

I'd like to see it somehow. Note that we did not approve Alliance yet.

Or we approved some truncated part?

 

[templar_x]

L has promised Mas to Anarchie. It is not worth to start another discussion with them over it. They will account for that in another tech deal, I do not doubt that.

templar_x

 

[Lanzelot]

First of all, I did not give them the fish location, did I? All I said was, that we keep the space open for now (we can't send a settler there short-term anyway...) and "will decide the question later". At the moment we can't really argue against d7's "we have 134 tiles, you have 169". We would only look like we want a heavily unfair settling plan. But once we have exchanged maps, we can say "here, you see, the numbers are such and such, and we demand that spot for us". And if they don't agree then, they will be the "agressors" who want an unfair settling plan, and so defacto they "broke" the alliance. We can then for example send a settler + 2 Numideans there, and then they have the choice, whether they want to trigger our GA plus give us WH or let us have that town.

First, I want stress in "negotiations" that our upper deals are "major" and "Alliance violation" does not mean, that REP-MA and NAP deals may be broken as a result.

You really believe, that they will keep the Rep-MA deal, after they find out that we have broken the Alliance deal and cheated them from start to end?

Second, after reading of discussion with Translator I do not see, what benefits at all we may get from this "Alliance". They act like bandits from government who try to make nationalization of somebody business.

One benefit that we already got is that we were able to get Republic so early. If they would have turned out to be hostile, we would first have to take care of our defenses (do Bronze first, build a few Numideans instead of settlers/2nd gran/FP prebuild/lib prebuild). All this would have delayed Rep by a lot.
And also it's not fair to blame the NAP on me. (templar complained about it.) We had a majority for that. And it has the benefits outlined above, e.g without NAP they would not have given us Bronze & Wheel, and without these we could not have started Rep that early, etc. And without NAP they would certainly not have given us Iron, so in fact we now have both advantages, early Rep and all the important weapon technologies. (And soon Literature as well.) The other continent had to work very hard for something like this (and in fact they still have neither Rep nor Lit, making their further development very slow...) I think these are already great "benefits", and we didn't pay too much for it by signing the NAP (considering that we didn't want to attack them anyway, because of their Hoplites...)

For Masonry they will either give us WC or it'll be part of our "contribution list". They will certainly not cheat us here, if they still want Philo+CoL+Rep...

 

[I. Larkin]

Alliance deal and cheated them from start to end?

I am not going to cheat. Oppositely, I offer say that they go far to far with their demands.
If they want civilized relations, we (and they) keep our deals (signed), but that's it.

No Alliance, I mean. Just "research program".

And also it's not fair to blame the NAP on me

Nobody blame you for that. This deal means nothing by it's nature.