Diplomacy with the Deutsche Küche

[Lanzelot]

btw, they do not even have direct contact, and still claim that the reason is that they know we do not have the right to trade Lit to them? come on. it becomes harder and harder to not simply call everone else´s diplomacy just plain stupid in this game.

templar_x

Of course, everyone else is stupid. But how come, we are the ones who ended up in a diplomatically lost position?

BTW, I find their reaction completely logical and not stupid at all: they have a cooperation with a reliable partner (Eagles), so why should they start business with a "traitor" now?? This is how MP diplomacy works, nothing unusual here. Whether they have direct contact or not does not matter at all. We did nothing to defend against the accusations, so they must assume they are true and act according the information they have. I would have done the same. (I'll add more details in the "Anarchos" thread, because it fits better to a question you asked over there.)

 

[templar_x]

Of course, everyone else is stupid. But how come, we are the ones who ended up in a diplomatically lost position?

because we are not stupid. it is a fact in this game that this is the reason.

t_x

 

[templar_x]

BTW, I find their reaction completely logical and not stupid at all: they have a cooperation with a reliable partner (Eagles), so why should they start business with a "traitor" now?? This is how MP diplomacy works, nothing unusual here. Whether they have direct contact or not does not matter at all. We did nothing to defend against the accusations, so they must assume they are true and act according the information they have. I would have done the same. (I'll add more details in the "Anarchos" thread, because it fits better to a question you asked over there.)

now to the second part:

in short, please Lanzelot post what we wanted to tell them, or acknowledge that i shall post it.

in length, you must distinguish between what you yourself can relate to and what is an official diplo statement. again, i totally disagree with your approach (because i simply perceive their diplo differently), but this is not the matter for what we post to them. i may understand or not understand (you the first, i the latter) why they decide on grounds they have no first hand knowledge of. but it is not just plain logical (totally illogical in my eyes), and this is what we should address. if we ignore just any rights the others are taking from us, while we always gift everyone everything just for good relations (which is what i believe is basically Lanzelots diplomatic approach in general - no cynism here, please correct me if i am wrong), this will not make things better but worse than simply playing solo.

templar_x

 

[I. Larkin]

which is what i believe is basically Lanzelots diplomatic approach in general - no cynism here,

At superior position better give some gifts to poor, empirically it is 18% of budget difference. Lanzelot have a tendency to give 30-40%. Anarhos want 50%.
Re: Kuhe. Better ask "stupid question": "Just curious: how do you know details? As we know you have no contact with Anarhos"

 

[templar_x]

Lieber Herr Cotta,
da seid Ihr falsch informiert worden. Wir können Euch bestätigen, daß wir Republik selbst erforscht und Literatur gekauft und vollständig bezahlt haben, und daß wir alle Verträge, die uns an der Weitergabe dieser Technologien gehindert hätten, gekündigt haben und wir somit wieder als unabhängige (= in keiner Allianz gebundene) Rezeptlieferanten auftreten dürfen. Wenn andere Quellen gegenteiliges behaupten, entspricht dies nicht der Wahrheit.

Aber wenn Ihr selbst Euch in Euren Verträgen an einen einzelnen Monopolisten gebunden habt und dies auch nicht ändern wollt, müssen wir das natürlich akzeptieren.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
__________________
Sir Lanzelot

__
nice post, Lanzelot. But could you still not put into it somewhere that it may have been good if the had asked us before they just take such Stille Post-information unfiltered and unproven, about deals with a tribe they do not even have met yet in game?!?!?!

you may find that logical that they take it for granted, but i find it extremely bad style to present such a word to someone who you ignore most of the time although you have met him, while you argue with information from a civ you do not even know. actually, it is not even clear whether they got this information legally!

templar_x

 

[Memento]

Ehrenwerter Lanzelot,

wie wir Euch mitgeteilt hatten, ist für die Sommersaison unsere Menüfolge schon geklärt. Wir sind allerdings daran interessiert, einige zusätzliche Angebote aufzunehmen und mit interessanten regionalen Besonderheiten zu versehen.
Wir schlagen daher vor, dass die dt. Küche und die Bruderschaft untereinander einen Kartentausch (einmalig oder auch öfter) vereinbaren.

Was haltet Ihr davon?

Mit den besten Grüßen

Cotta, der Geschmacksverstärker

Thats funny.
someone reply like this?

Wir sind immer an guten Tauschgeschäften intressiert, ein Kartentausch gehört aber zur Zeit nicht dazu.
Solltet Ihr einen Vorschlag haben der unseren beiden Nationen dient, so zögert nicht ihn uns vorzuschlagen

 

[I. Larkin]

Did not understood: they want Map or offer MapMaking?

 

[Memento]

they want our map

 

[Memento]

Wir sind immer an guten Tauschgeschäften intressiert, ein Kartentausch gehört aber zur Zeit nicht dazu.
Solltet Ihr einen Vorschlag haben der unseren beiden Nationen dient, so zögert nicht ihn uns vorzuschlagen

We are always interested in good deals, to swapping cards at this time isn´t a good deal for us.But maybe later.
Should you have a deal which benefits both of our two nations, so do not hesitate to propose him to us.

 

[Lanzelot]

Of course we want techs, but as Eagles and Küche have already stated: they won't trade those with us during AA.
So the question we have to ask ourselfes: who would benefit more from a map trade? We or them? If they have already traded maps with the Eagles, we would benefit more, as we can then see most of the other continent, while they only see what we explored so far.
On the other hand, they will see our sea passages! (But these are not hard to discover. Once they send out a galley, they will quickly discover them themselves...) However, perhaps we can use it as "negotiation bait"?

Perhaps something like that:

Yes, learning more about this world would benefit both of our nations. However, we have to tell you, that our sailors have by now discovered quite a number of safe sea passages between our continents, and this knowledge is certainly very valuable. Would you be willing to pay for this extra information (and for the efforts of our ships) by adding a decent sum of gold to this deal? In that case we would be willing to share our secrets with you.

Or are you interested only in territory maps?

In general it's good to have at least one party talking to us (so please, don't ruin that now as well...), but we must be careful not to give them information they could use against us. Right?

 

[Memento]

we don´t benefit by a map trade and we don´t have MM.
at this time we don´t must see her land. we don´t plan an invasion.
they would see the size of our cities and much more.

If they have already traded maps with the Eagles, we would benefit more, as we can then see most of the other continent,

where is the benefit??? will we see eagles land, we can open an embassy

so please, don't ruin that now as well.

so please, be cool and don´t give them anything which not benefits us and don´t say yes to all

 

[Lanzelot]

so please, be cool and don´t give them anything which not benefits us and don´t say yes to all

I never say yes to all.
Anyway, I've only been raising this question here internally for us to make up our mind. (And "thinking aloud" a bit... and asking for your input!) I wasn't sure myself, how much their map would be worth to us, and how much ours would be worth to them. Thanks for your arguments/inputs, that's what I've been looking for And I agree with them. Let me sum up what we have so far:

• Our map is (probably) worth more than theirs: sea lanes, islands, etc
• We must expect, that they will sooner or later share their map with the Eagles, so the Eagles would gain our map for free then...
• They can see our city sizes and locations
• We don't need their map now, as we don't plan an invasion
• We will see some of the other continent, as soon as we establish embassies. (Let's do this soon now, before the others do!)

Benefits:

• They might already have traded maps with the Eagles. (We can ask them about that.)
• We can see their city sizes and locations
• They might add a big gold sum to the deal, if we negotiate carefully.

So what's the conclusion?
a) We decline politely.
b) We keep negotiating along the lines "Our map shows that and that, what does your map show? Does it include the Eagles map? We think our map is more valuable, would you pay X gold in addition?"
How much would they need to offer, before we are willing to give our map? Or not at all?

 

[Memento]

short answer:
no map trade

see this

We are always interested in good deals, to swapping cards at this time isn´t a good deal for us.But maybe later.
Should you have a deal which benefits both of our two nations, so do not hesitate to propose him to us.

 

[I. Larkin]

My impression, that Eagles dictate to Kuche what to do. They understand, that we will not trade WM to them, but to Kuche it is another business. We are not that naive. Sure, no map trade.

 

[Memento]

ok,
so i post my text there?

 

[I. Larkin]

OK, I am thinking can we talk a bit more with DK about "how things"? Have no idea. May be ask "how much tiles they may offer to us?"

 

[Memento]

I post this

Sehr geehrte Köche,

wir sind immer an guten Tauschgeschäften intressiert. Zuerst möchten wir euch fragen an was für einen Kartentausch Ihr dachtet. Welt- oder nur Territorium Karte?

Wir Ihr sicherlich wisst, haben unsere wagemutigen Seeleute schon fast die ganze Welt der Meere und Küsten gesehen.
Würdet Ihr für diese wertvollen extra Informationen und der gleichzeitigen Einsparung von Schiffen einen Ausgleich zahlen?

Wie würde es mit einer Weitergabe dieser Informationen aussehen und würde eure Karte schon das Gebiet der Eagles enthalten?

 

[Lanzelot]

Very good reply! (I was just about to suggest a similar text, when I noticed you already had the same idea. )

 

[Memento]

Fine that we have the same line this time

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, they responded. They want to switch WM with no compensation and they want to do this every turn...
A one time switch may be ok, as theirs includes the Eagles map, but a periodic exchange is not fair is it? Our curraghs will gain more info each turn as their one curragh.