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Diplomacy with the Deutsche Küche

Discussion in 'The Knights’ Brotherhood' started by Lanzelot, May 2, 2011.

  1. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    red: delete it
    to many information

     
  2. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Ok. But:

    This is no extra information. They can easily see in F4, that we are 7 (or 6) techs behind.
     
  3. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    They can start invention only if Anarchos + Eagles get Feuda and Maschienenbau. If both get the same freetech, its only 5. ;)
     
  4. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    arrghh
    what you doing?

     
  5. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Oops. Too late yesterday evening... I meant to make a "search and replace" over the text and replace all occurences of "Sipahi" with "Cavalry", but then I forgot...

    But may be not too bad after all: perhaps it's a good "trial ballon"... If they comment on the "Sipahi", we might get more information on whether they are Ottomans or France...
     
  6. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Can't follow with details, but, with Translator help I can say that general line is "OK".
    What do you think about an idea to contact Eagles?
     
  7. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    I don´t know.

    1.They are not sci. :D
    2.a good question
     
  8. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    I think, we were quite successful: they agreed to send us a loan of 300g! Looks like they really mean the cooperation seriously. What do we offer in return? Interest? How much?

    I already wanted to ask the Küche last turn, what they think about us contacting Eagles. But then it became too late and also the response was already pretty long...
    My idea is to take the Anarchos' entry into the MA as "trigger" for contacting them. This will camouflage our cooperation with the Küche, so the Küche should like it. And we might get another bit support for our war. (The Eagles will probably not like us to be overrun by the Anarchos, just like the Küche didn't like it.)
    I can prepare a response during lunch break, while someone else can again play the turn?
     
  9. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    OK, I can play turn, but what I must send to Kuhe? WM accepted?
    Or, I see.
    Read Gotta with translator. It seems, that kuhe still think that Anarhos was right. Really, it is hard to explain, what was "wrong with them". But really, it was. Anyway, let try not to destroy Kuhe's "sympathy".
     
  10. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Yes, world map accepted.

    Edit: Ivan, at the end of your turn please compare our income at 10% and 0% lux and let me know the difference.
     
  11. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    16 gpt
     
  12. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Interesting offers from the Küche:

    If we mange to survive, they offer:

    - we don't need to pay interest for the 300g
    - they are willing to give us even more credit in the next few turns
    - in return they would like to get credit from us starting in like 15 turns. They will use it to rush the last missing libraries and will then research to Military Tradition in 4 turns per tech.
    - in the meantime, we should build the Glib (or research the last missing 6 techs). They will then pay back our credit with all techs up to Military Tradition
    - both of us will try to control their continent
    - both of us should connect all possible luxuries and strategic resources and share them with the other team for a symbolic price of 1gpt
    - we will make a research plan for the rest of the Middle Age and for the Industrial Age and also for Fission and Rocketry, so we can see Uranium and Aluminium and share these with each other.
    - Afterwards, the cooperation will end and both sides will research the missing techs alone and try to build the spaceship.
    - No war, and the only allowed espionage missions will be investigating cities.

    If this works successfully, basically we get a 50% chance for victory. Not bad considering that we already wanted to give up... (Of course we still need to survive the next 3-4 turns...)
     
  13. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    lurker's comment:
    that is hilarious! i am only waiting when i hear about someone´s grand diplomacy that has led to this offer.

    the truth that is funnier than any joke about the situation could be is

    that i made practically exactly this proposal some felt 100 turns ago!

    that they did not even reply to that special diplomacy, but now realize that the Anarchie and the Eagles have even worse diplomats (another theory some of this team already had mentioned ages ago! :mischief:)

    that therefore d7 and that Cyc nutcase managed what this team did not even dare to think of: create us an ally that thinks for us, acts for us and even formulates for us.

    or what else do you think made them come up with that great plan? their sympathy for the nutcases of the Eagles and the Anarhie teams? no, they realized how stupid their behaviour was to believe the liars. and the main reason why we were unable to communicate that to them ourselves before this war went so ugly, was because Lanzelot and Memento 1) felt THEMSELVES that WE were the traitors and 2) that they were all so sure that the Anarchie would never break the NAP.

    Ivan and myself were sure that they would never KEEP the deal, and I must reserve for myself that I was the one that clearly uttered it against some very sceptical reactions. everthing is still there in the logs if you want to go back and see the epic failure after an epic success in the early game!

    now you can only hope for lots of RNG luck and to overcome the Anarchie. Most probably this will not be enough still, but at least you might take them out. your total loss is still much more likely, which is unfortunate on the one hand and well deserved for such a bad playing after that start on the other hand.

    templar_x
     
  14. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    well, what should i say.
    all right templar and i shame a little bit but in all DGs never a team breaks a NAP.

    what else do the kitchen do? their offer is the best chance they have.
     
  15. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    it is ok, Memento, you were 100% sure and it was 100% your experience in the other games. and i had never the impression that you were all too self-righteous about this.
    however, for all the signs that were and that especially Ivan and i pointed out at several times, it is still hard to imagine how one could not see that they were not to be trusted. but probably Lanzelot and you were really kind of "blinded" by your past games and experience, that some thing may not happen. still it was weird how you long were ready to accept that it was our fault and our sin to break a deal, when indeed this so-called breach was an emergency brake.

    but do the Anarchie players now really suffer a 'reputation hit' in the community? or is it just like before, that they can still blame you for being traitors themselves? in game they obviously feel some consequences finally, after quite some stupid first reactions by the other teams, and at least brought the Küche up against them. this will probably play an important role, that they feel that the Anarchos had fooled them before. but of course, you are right, that the Küche has own interests in their proposal as well. after all, they are in a good shape and will probably win, if they can pull off that alliance with you and you do not simply go under.

    templar_x
     
  16. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Sorry, but you are again quite wrong with your assessment...

    First: reputation still matters in this game.
    • Why did Eagles/Küche gift the Anarchos into the middle age? Because to them it looked like we are untrustworthy Robber-Knights who break deals just like that. (And because we did not defend against the accusations that the Anarchos told them. Who said that it is "below our dignity to defend against these accusations"? Well, if we had defended and explained things to Eagles/Küche, they would never have let the Anarchos into their alliance and our position would not be so desperate now...)
    • Why is the Küche now helping us? Because the Anarchos were even worse than us and broke a NAP! (And of course it's a very good chance for the Küche to get ahead of the Eagles...)

    Second: you say the Anarchie would never have kept their deals. I still say they would. They are not stupid, and as long as keeping a deal gives them more benefits than breaking it, they would of course not have broken it. (This is one part of "my" diplomacy that you never managed to understand: the best way to defend against betrayal and back-stabbing, is to make the deals so attractive for the other side that they would be stupid to break them.)
    They broke this NAP now, because it was their only chance: we have pushed them against the wall, we were the first to break a deal, we threatened them with war to make their settler retreat, we pillaged their roads and insulted them in the forums. They had only two choices: either wait until our well-developed Republic would simply overrun their small empire, or break the NAP and take us by surprise! They were probably aware, that that would destroy their rep and would loose the game for them in the long run, but at least they would have a chance for sweet revenge...

    In fact, all of us (Ivan, Memento and myself) saw this coming in the long run. (If you read our discussions in the last couple of turns before the attack, you see that we have been talking about it and about whether it would be better to rush a city-wall in Ivan-gorod now, etc. I even short-rushed a Numidian in L-E the turn before the attack, in order to give better defense to Ivan-gorod.) But unfortunately all of us were completely surprised that the attack would come so soon...

    But anyway, no need to discuss this here and now. What counts is the present. The Küche is asking, how much gold they should send us this turn? They can send 200 this turn, or 100 for the next two turns. But they think that 100 is better, otherwise the Anarchos might become suspicious. And we probably can't use 200 in one turn anyway?! So 100?

    Lanzelot
     
  17. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Just for record: I think t-x right. Anarhos had an idea bend us as much as possible (Rep, Land) and strike suddenly.
    Reputation means little here, Kuhe has interest to support weak part (us) not to be alone against two sci cives.
    Ask them about situation with Eagles: Are they going to support Anarhos? Only with Techs or with military? Is Eagles Bizantyia? What relation Kuhe - Eagles now?
    I think the more gold we have NOW the faster we stop retreat and gain our land back.
    Ask them about Feudalism, HBR... Can they trade us Iron few turns later? We may build few warriors and upgrade...
     
  18. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Ok, I asked them these questions. Except for two, for which we already know the answer:
    Calis already confirmed, that they are Byzantia.
    The Küche has signed an agreement not to give us any AA tech and the first-tier MA techs, and they are not willing to break that agreement. Cotta was quite clear about it.
     
  19. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    When and how Callis confirmed? He "said", but I did not see proof.
    OK, it was in German, probably.
     
  20. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    According to justanick there are no indications for a really tight alliance between Eagles and Anarchos. justanick said that they still have very long term peace agreements with the Eagles and also a research agreement. As part of that, they will research Chivalry soon, so I assume they will get Feudalism from the Eagles. At the moment, Feudalism is not yet known, but justanick expects it shortly.

    I think, this makes the GLib again a strategy to think about. We could probably do it in 15 turns and then get up to Chivalry immediately?
    Another option would be to build a barracks now and then do 1-turn chariots or 1-turn horses/swords after 30spt?

    Apparently the relations between Anarchos and Küche are now at such a low point, that the Küche can't even get a short RoP for their curragh...
     

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