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Diplomacy with the Deutsche Küche

Discussion in 'The Knights’ Brotherhood' started by Lanzelot, May 2, 2011.

  1. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    I did not follow well all this discussion but some things look strange: Kuche approved Eagle's gift of Techs to anarchos, (or even participated within) but let them bound with agreement to to give us any techs. Why? At the same time they decided to support us and, probably, anachos calculated it somehow (or Kuche even tell them). This explain why Anarhos not want them in their water. Anyway be careful with information that you give to Kuche, they may turn around again...
    Try to find out will Anarhos get Feudalism and Chivalry straight away? Will Eagles (or even Kuche) trade them Iron? We have chances to pillage Iron, but can't block trade, unless DoW to Eagles. Situation from hopeless become difficult, but at some scenarios it may be hopeless again. Barracks in Camelot was a mistake. It will take too long to get 30 spt, 5 horses do not deserve all this trouble. Or, may be we can build TGL in another City?
     
  2. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    justanick explained it to me: first Eagles & Küche had a "contract" not to sell any AA techs to the other continent. Then, around the time we offered the "combined deal Rep+Lit" to Eagles/Küche, the Anarchos told them that we broke two deals: a) agreement to trade Rep for MA tech and b) not trade Lit & Rep to the other continent.
    Following templar's advice, we did nothing to defend ourselves against these accusations, and so Eagles/Küche believed them to be true and decided to punish us. So they modified the "contract" to also include the Anarchos.
    Now, if they wanted to give us these techs, the "contract" would have to be modified a second time, and all three participants would have to give their ok. (And it is quite unlikely that the Anarchos will give their ok to this modification... :D)

    They are helping us now, a) because they realized they will need help against the Eagles sooner or later and b) because the Anarchos broke the NAP they had signed with us...

    The barracks is already finished? Well, not too bad. Let's build a couple more chariots, then 2-3 archers and then 30spt should be ready?! How about Carlion builds the GLib? If we use a palace prebuild, it's better anyway, so no one can see what we are doing...
     
  3. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    I do not understand this. My impression was that T-x said opposite, probably, we have different interpretation of word "defend". IIRC Anarhos trade Literacy, not we are.
    We did not disclose details of our contract with Anarhos, but they did.
    I had impression from very beginning that they are extremely nasty team and better to stay away from them, but I had no 100% proof of it.
    I thought it was our internal continental business. Why they act as a judges? Even without asking us? Actually, ethics of Demo/ PBEM games is very strange but not unique (so cold "black PR"). Anyhow...
    I think, we may try following: "Kuche may explain to Eagles, that there is no reason to trust Anarhos and better share 1600 from us". If it will not work, we may try ask them to ensure us that Anarhos will not get Feudalism + Chiv from Engels/ Kuche, or/and will not get Iron. Can they monitor if Anarhos have/have no Harbor?
    Barracks will be ready next turn, and unless we will have riot it will be. I thought that 30 spt is 1-2 turns so I finish HBR already. We have first Horse, as you can see. FP from Clariton take ages and TGL twice more.
     
  4. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Some very difficult if not impossible tasks. (I'm thinking about what I can do, whithout suggesting again a "break of deals".)
    I think, our best chance is to beat the Anarchos before they get Chivalry. justanick says, that up to now Feudalism is still not yet known. And it is the Küche's job to research Chivalry, but they will do it as slowly as possible. So it's still a very long time to Chivalry. So either we have weakened them already so much, that Chivalry does no longer matter, or we finish the GLib by that time, so that we get Knights at the same time? How about Camlann? Hmm, probably 30 turns, still too long.

    Currently no trade possible between Küche and Anarchos. But we can see the Anarchos' harbors as well, can't we?


    Well, they did ask. (Or rather the Eagles did, but that was at a time, when Eagles/Küche were acting "in unisono".) Unfortunately nobody allowed me to "explain" our problems with the Anarchos to them:

    You may all even have been right, that it was none of their business. But that is not what counts! What counts is, that they thought it was their business. And us not explaining things, drove them into the alliance with the Anarchos, and this is doing us so much harm now. (All techs up to Chivalry! :wallbash:)
     
  5. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    This quotation support "your case" but mean very little. First, they are cuterd from context and second diplo situation is dialogs when with new information all was said could be a nonsense "now". That's why I do not interfere with your dialog with Kuche, and my proposals is just "wish". Don't know, how realistic, but may be realistic soon.

    Unfortunately, military and diplo "connected", and when I stop playing around 17 August disaster have happened - your defense was inadequate to "diplo" situation with Anarhos. They use the same trick as yours near Amsterdam - road at 1 turn and flood goes. Small remedy could be to keep Ivan-gorod at size 1.
    Well, but it is "past"...

    Looks that Anarhos retreat. I was worry about "active defense" with Horse + Hoplite, but they put horse on Goldenberg.

    I rushed Harbor at Silk village, but in principle we may start to pay Kuche back. 20 pt may be affordable at GA.
    Lust turn 10% lux was 20 lpt. Next turn will be decisive things will depend on battle near Ivan Gorod. We have 2 NM 3 Sw 1 horse, Anarhos 3 Hplt, 1 horse and 2 Trebuhet at 1 sw.
     
  6. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    not only do quotations from a discussion say little, when the discussion went on, there are votes and so on.
    you also overlook that what Memento and I said now happened: they found out THEMSELVES by now how d7+Loki act, react and argue. now they believe it. back then they were their brothers from the same community, they wanted to believe what they said, and whatever 1000 excuses you would have uttered (and i know you would have), they would not have bought it. but a situation like now, where they feel GUILTY and give the Knights a far better deal than they actually would have to, would probably be impossible.

    none of this can be proven, but it is very likely by what happens now. lots of your diplo theories and assumptions have been proven wrong, on the other hand. most importantly, that the Anarchos would never break a deal, and that it would be possible to come to fair terms with them. i cannot see the slightest argument that speaks for your cause, however, that is not what would drive me mad at all. mistakes happen, everyone does them, and only stupid people say they never make one. the nuisance is the fact that you obviously believe that everyone else is plain stupid and you can wipe away those facts with "black is white" ((c) Ivan) argumentation. a simple 'sorry, i was wrong. how can we act from here and live with it' and a team could have continued to function.

    t_x
     
  7. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    I resigned from the team in CIFO because I did no longer read the whole mischief.
    Now i must read here the same mischief again and again. this and the fact that Lanzelot has deleted my last mail unread, show me that it´s better to resign here too.

    have fun :wavey:
     
  8. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Of course I read your mail. I didn't answer, because obviously the discussion was at a dead end. You can't understand me or my philosophy, I still can't understand you and templar. Everything has been said and done; we have to accept it.

    Edit: from Memento I just got this mail, and he asked me to post it (he apparently already left our group):

    And while we are at it, saying sorry:
    I never meant to say that, and if I really made that impression, I am sorry. I was just very frustrated that no one was able to see the things that seemed so obvious to me. I guess that's why I kept trying to convince you.

    I still don't believe that your way of seeing this is right, but I do realize that it was my fault to press my opinion as I did and to cause the breakup of the team. Sorry for that.

    OK, I will stop hijacking this thread now. Only one last point... I can't resist... ;)

    Two things are wrong in this argument:
    a) we were not in contact with "their brothers from the same community", we were in contact with the Eagles! And I'm pretty sure that they would have understood our point, they have some respectable players in their ranks. After all: they came to us and asked us for our point of view, instead of simply believing the Anarchos' accusations! That's a good sign.
    And without the consent of the Eagles, the Anarchos could not have been included into the Küche/Eagles alliance.
    b) I would not have uttered "excuses", I would simply have told them the truth. In my experience the truth and an open word work better than all those overly clever "secret schemes". But perhaps I'm just too naive...

    Lanzelot
     
  9. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    And sorry for the above rant... :blush:
    But now I'm silent.
     
  10. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Sure, truth is better then "secret schemes". Problem is that your "truth" might be very different from reality. I wrote few months ago"
     
  11. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Lanzelot, Kuche reply something but their proposal not very clear for me. Could you care about that?
    2) Eagles. I have proposed to make conference call with Kuche to discuss things. Can you work out this idea somehow?
    3) PaGe alone now, as I understood he wish to continue to play. Can you prepare a note to offer him reasonable surrender? (I mean 2 Cities, all tech he have). Border - where it was before war.
     
  12. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    now that you have finally gotten out of defense, you want to offer a status quo ante agreement? that may not be enough, if you still want to stay in the game.

    for yourself:
    you practically put all the commerce and production of your GA into this war. if you do not continue it, you simply lost all of it.

    for the Anarchie:
    they cannot leave despotism, so as L puts it, they will keep falling behind. if you give them some ease, they might be damaged, but not enough so to not be as strong/weak an ally as you are for the Küche.

    i would say, either they REALLY surrender on compensation terms, like the whole lake area as well, to you, or you will have to continue this war. some day you will have to bring it to an end anyway.

    templar_x
     
  13. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    I will take care of 1) and 2). Cotta basically asks, whether we can start paying back the credit as planned in T105 and what would be a good plan for us helping them getting to MT first.

    But on point 3) I agree 100% with templar! If we let them off the hook now, they'll revolt into Republic, consolidate their empire and then use their tech lead and Eagle's help to make life really "unpleasant" for us...
    We may not need to "press too hard", if we run into too many Hoplites and get too many losses, but we should keep the war hot to keep them in Despotism. Perhaps we even force them to pop-rush.
    Just play it carefully, avoid losses and also - as soon as we have air to breath - finish our expansion and build a market here or there.
     
  14. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    I am not going to ask for peace just for "borders". They must give us two Cities instead of Ruins and all Techs they have (instead of nothing). We can't make research (or build TGL), carry war and pay to Kuche. Well, if you will get good deals with Kuche - Eagles then we may continue war. If "not" we must get "conribution" from anarchos. We may come to point when PaGe will lose intrest to continue and will have only motivation to bring as much harm to us as possible.
     
  15. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    lurker's comment: you two will have to find a common strategy here. i for myself do not understand why you would waste anything into research now. either you can win this war with AA units or it will be lost. so put some shields into the GLib and otherwise build units, units, units, and if they falter, markets.
    t_x
     
  16. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Problem now is that Anarhos most probably will stop playing. So I thought to encourage thm to continue and give us some favor before they quit completely.
     
  17. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Don't think they will do us any favors... ;)

    And in any case: I much prefer, if they drop and we can settle the continent quickly, than they give us a town and a few techs, but we keep a mortal enemy on our continent, who can recover with the help of the Eagles and try another sneak attack like this one... (Perhaps at a point in time, when the Eagles have landed some troops in our south and they attack from the north...)
    Also, if they stay in the game for longer, they will research techs for the Eagles.
     
  18. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    OK, whatever. But what situation NOW? As I see Anarhos hold game and no action/discussion about that.
     
  19. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    and it even is not weekend... ;)
     
  20. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Probably PaGe is too busy, and the situation quite difficult atm...

    Some important strategic information, don't know if I mentioned it already:

    • The Eagles expect us to build the GLib and have for that reason started researching towards Education. Important consequence: an invasion with Cavs is not to be expected in the near future. Küche (and therefore we) will probably have Cavs earlier.
    • For that reason it is probably better, if we don't waste our gold in researching the AA techs, but rather support the Küche in their research. So GLib is a must, I think.
    • Another reason, why I want to keep the Küche as a very close friend: if we have an alliance with them, the Eagles will always need to think about defense on their own continent and it is not so easy for them to stage an invasion on our continent. This is the most important factor. If the alliance between Eagles and Küche would have continued, we would always have to fear that the Eagles would send a large army over in order to prevent the defeat of the Anarchos. (Of course it is not in their interest, if we take over our continent and become a super-power...)
    • The Küche is currently researching Chivalry, but they are doing it very slowly... We either need to weaken the Anarchos decisively. before they get it, or if we see this is impossible because they have too many Hoplites - we should switch back to a defensive strategy and finally do the GLib, so we get Chivalry not much later. So lets wait the next few turns, where Camelot builds units, and if the resistance is stiffening then, we switch it to GLib?! We should still be able to get 300s in during GA.
     

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