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Diplomacy with the Eagles

Discussion in 'The Knights’ Brotherhood' started by Lanzelot, Apr 20, 2011.

  1. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    T-x, please have more diplomacy within team. You have some experience here, Lanzelot probably not. Things are really different with individual PBEM, when you may charm around your opponent and "get all pleasure" in the way you understand this word. Here, very often we come to the situation of terrible frustration when "team" make a decision that bring us to the point that nobody like. Probability of this will be higher, if we will make our deals using "vote procedure". If steps in diplo are inconsistent, better no diplo at all. Or we can make only "short term deals" like Lit for CoL, est. If we want long term cooperation we should workout some "diplo plan" for ourselves and follow it... Can we?
     
  2. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    @ Ivan - i am not really sure if i understand what you want me to do :confused:

    but what about the reply to the Eagles?

    t_x
     
  3. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    I recommend e-mail to Calis. You may say that we did not received reply from DK, and Cyc reply was "obscure"....
     
  4. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    Calis already wrote lately that he will not do any more Email diplo, and when he wrote this it dealt with the game only veeeeeery vaguely.

    either we post in the forum, what i would suggest, or we leave it.

    but i read cyc´s post again... his tone is totally inadequate in my eyes. like, "he is giving us the chance to improve our status". what??? one needs to read that several times to fully grasp the arrogance.

    templar_x
     
  5. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    again, this was Cyc´s post:

    he has not asked about that before, but about our Rep deal. i answered to that, not in detail, but clear enough given that it is none of his business.

    why not reply:

    templar_x
     
  6. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    I don't think that it is a good idea to approve our behavior in Cyc's eyes.
    We made an offer. He asked a questions. We replied. He wrote his "assessment". Why we should care?
    The only question we may repeat "deal or no deal"? With Kuche or without? Any correction he want to consider?
    That's it. It is not his business to care about our status.
     
  7. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    I reject that my way is "love and peace mode". My reasoning was as follows: we had decided that playing solo is not really desirable and that before we do that we want to make another try and see if we can get a favorable deal with the other continent. We made a serious and very clear offer: http://www.civforum.de/showpost.php?p=4191564&postcount=24
    The Eagles did not reply for a long time, probably checked their various other options they have with Küche/Anarchy (and most probably they have the same problems getting a team majority for one way or another as we do... :rolleyes:) Anyway, in the end they replied, and the response showed that a) in general they are interested and b) the Anarchos told them that we are traitors, and they (=the Eagles) do not want to deal with us, if this turns out to be true. But they want to hear our side of the story, so they can make their own judgment.

    Now we can say a) "that's none of their business, if they don't want to deal with us, fine" or b) "that deal would be beneficial for us, so after we invested the initial effort, why not follow up with another straight answer, dissolve their worries and secure the deal". (After all, we are not "selling our souls" here like we would have in an alliance; this is only a loose contract, opening a door for further possibilities with Eagles and/or Küche.)

    You may not esteem my way as diplomacy, but I would like to point out that in your way there are also two shortcomings:
    • You wrote
      , but in my opinion this fails to take into account: most often people don't look for a fault in themselves, they look for the fault in the other side. So if this second round of negotiations fails as well, they will not blame their own behavior, they will of course blame us. So from their point of view it will look like this: "in our first round of negotiations, when we had almost signed a very intense deal, they let us run against the wall. Then they made a second offer and again followed it up with some "obscure" unsatisfactory blabla and let the deal fall through again. You simply can't make serious deals with those unreliable knights brothers!" You may object that this is not true and it's actually their fault, but that doesn't help, because the above is how their perception looks like, and you can't change that - same as you can't change the Anarchos view about us. Consequently there will be no "later era, when they have learnt a bit more". If we blow it now for a second time, there will be no third chance. And I don't think that's smart diplomacy considering that we may soon fall behind them. (Unless we have another trump up our sleeves, like a satisfactory cooperation with the Anarchos, which I don't see at the moment.)
    • To exaggerate it a bit: your diplomacy basically amounts to the following: "well, we could have won this game, but unfortunately all other teams (except for us) where psychopaths, jerks and arrogant a*****, and therefore we were unable to conduct proper diplomacy, got isolated and in the end lost." Seriously, is that what your experience as a negotiator tells you? If the other side is stupid, incapable of proper negotiating, etc, I just give up and loose the game? Or should an experienced negotiator not in the contrary try to take advantage of the other side's shortcomings (instead of waiting for them to start behaving "properly")?!


    Very well spoken. We just had an example of that. I started the negotiation with Eagles/Küche, templar followed it up in a way that I would never have done, and the end-result is that both of us are frustrated about the way it went.
    We need to make a "big picture", and then the details need to be left to a single person doing it in "his style" without the others throwing in wrenches from the side... So do we want to give our future with the other continent a serious chance? Or rather prepare for a solo-game now? Or (as I learned to my big surprise today) use the third option and repair our "failed marriage" with the Anarchos? (Never thought that after all that has been said, you would seriously consider this, but apparently you do?!)
    I don't really care, so just pick one, but then please follow it through consistently, and not "start something, and in the next move spoil it again completely".

    Lanzelot
     
  8. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    :goodjob:
    very good post in the Eagles thread!

    :(:(:(
    i had a long post here trying to explain a lot about about difficult negotiation situations. no idea where it has gone. it basically says, YES, your "exaggerated" point sometimes has to be made!!! if you never draw a line, the others will never see or accept it. we did not do it, although we have talked about it so much, and this cannot work with all those Ribbentrops and Hitlers in foreign police. you cannot talk Calis with Cyc, that is my point, or at least do not expect anything useful from it. appeasement simply never worked.

    t_x
     
  9. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    cyc answer

     
  10. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    Another Cyc post, another nonsense post. I hardly know him, but whenever I read one of his posts (i had this feeling even before this game started) it is like I would listen to a lieing politician.
    t_x
     
  11. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Knowing Cyc little better I can say that that this post "good" for his level. He is the person who think about himself as "supreme..." I think their Alliance with Kuche assume that they surrender all external affairs to Eagles, by the "agreement". That explains Kuche "communication rate" and many other things: no contact est. I can't imagine, how it may work other way.
    My worry is that when he will start to loose the game he will find the way to "quit" with "face", so we must be very careful keeping "official rules" when dealing with him.
     
  12. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    i know that most of us love to stay friendly and unmoved whatever is thrown at them. but this is not how difficult negotiations with difficult negotiators work. [think of negotiations between employers and the union, if you want a real life example]

    in my eyes we MUST give a reasonable but clear answer to the Eagles, if we want to keep at least the chance for an internal discussion going there. (with the Anarchie, this is very probably already a lost case, we gave in to so many of their unreasonable demands in the past, that now WE must argue that they are the aggressors?!?! there is no or little internal discussion as it seems, as everyone has learnt already, that we behave so stupidly = friendly for them in the past, whatever they did. the more they were mad at us when we, totally against to course until then, changed our minds. think about it.)
    Cyc cannot play as alone as d7. there is Calis. so if we want that Calis involves himself into diplo and does not Cyc just do what he wants, we need to show that he is not successful with his arrogant diplo, and that this costs them diplo opportunities in the future.

    my proposal, which can be changed as always, but should not again lose all its content, because this is required in this situation, or we have another tribe that puts us into the "lame powerless yessayers" category, what we until today simply were:

    You still fail to deliver the slightest reason what the accusations of another tribe has to do with our relationship, or with this deal, and whatever status it is that by which means we had to, or "got the opportunity to" improve. To disclose the so obvious twist in the logic of your reply:
    We are not holding the very unheartly welcome of yours against you, when you at first sight in the game cried war between our nations. Nor do we blame your nation that there was a deal Lit-MM that *at least* can be interpreted in different ways. And now you are telling us that a deal where The Brotherhood pays 100% in advance cannot be made because *someone else* is talking bad about us and we did not bring enough justification to the judge Cyc? - either you do not expect us to even believe this is the true reason, or you please try another diplomatic approach "at a later time".


    templar_x
     
  13. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Good so far, but I don't understand this:
    What does this sentence mean? :confused:

    (Edit: honestly, Cyc's post are easier for me to understand than yours, sometimes... :crazyeye:)
     
  14. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    There is one more problem that we must take into account. Nowdays diplomatic climate is very uncertain, but the same is true for Eagles and Anarhos! What Cyc try to find out is "whats going on in our relations with Anarhos. Anarhos "tell him" but what is the reality? He try to verify. We should not help him with that. At the same time we have to find out more about situation: what EG - DK status, and EG- AN as well...
     
  15. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    that´s fine, you explain the meaning of Cyc´s posts to me, and i am going to explain mine to you.

    so, i am translating this for Lanzelot only:
    Entweder erwartest du gar nicht dass wir glauben dies wäre der wahre Grund, oder du versuchst bitte einen anderen diplomatischen Zugang "zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt".

    What is the difficult part of the sentence?

    t_x
     
  16. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    All of it...

    But let's start with that: the true reason for what? And I don't get the logical connection between the "either -- or".

    Cyc's post? Well, Ivan already explained it very nicely.
     
  17. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    when i had read it again before i also noticed that the either-or does not perfectly fit. still i am sure you understand what it is trying to say. just reformulate whatever you like better differently, like i already said, and if you like the rest and there are no other objections, please post it.

    t_x
     
  18. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    i honestly *hate* if people use a language like Cyc does. even more that the proletarian diplomacy d7 uses. Cyc talks like a politician. i despise this cheesy communication.

    templar_x
     
  19. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Eagles replied. tone very different. I think d7 and Loki said them all that they think about Eagles...
    Ask their Lux resources to trade for 11 gpt, say.
     
  20. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    :confused: You mean we should sell our silks?
     

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