1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Diplomacy with the Eagles

Discussion in 'The Knights’ Brotherhood' started by Lanzelot, Apr 20, 2011.

  1. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Location:
    on a learning curve
    fyi, Calis wrote to me that we will receive something official from them in the thread soon, and that he cannot write more at the moment.

    t_x
     
  2. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    4,403
    That's why I thought that 8 gpt at least something...

    Problem is that if we give Rep to anarhos without "good conditions" they may do the same with Eagles. (d7 suggested this).

    If d7-Callis discussion will happen Eagles will know, that we have told Anarhos about our project.
    At the same time Anarhos may trade Republic to Eagles themselves...

    I have no idea, how protect "Alliance" out of decay for "long time" to MA time. We should work out basic rules that both team consider "good" and will keep till MA.
     
  3. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Location:
    on a learning curve
    we have the agreement with the Anarchos that Republic must not be traded to anyone else by any of us.

    moreover, we have already made the Rep-MA tech deal long ago. still we are trying, and we must try, to tie it to the alliance. and i mean to an alliance that we can live with.

    templar_x
     
  4. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    4,403
    Logic say "an alliance that we can live with comfortably ..."
     
  5. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,819
    Location:
    Heidelberg
    Latest response from the Eagles:
    So my stomach was right after all, wasn't it? And we are very very lucky, that Calis is an honorable man and told us this openly! Otherwise it could well have happened that we first wasted 8 or 12 turns researching other things while waiting for MM, only to find out in the end, that they won't trade it to us...

    So what have we achieved so far?
    • no deal with the Eagles
    • the Anarchos don't really like us, and it will be hard work to get a smooth cooperation going with them (hopefully they still mean it honestly after all those months!)
    • the Anarchos now have a contact and can (theoretically) choose between us and the Eagles. (Luckily the Eagles already have signed a contract with the Küche, which apparently includes a "no tech trade with the other continent" clause. So the chance for this is small.)
    • the other continent saved 16% on Iron Working, 16% on CoL and 33% on Republic (that's more beakers than our Philo-freetech...)
    • we did not get a single tech from the other continent

    Looks like we did a really good job so far...

    If we don't want to end up isolated, we need to work very hard now on establishing a true friendship and trust relationship with the Anarchos. One cannot simply "switch partners" as one likes and "fool everybody" easily. A good cooperation requires trust, and this does not come overnight, it grows only very slowly. Yesterday I proposed letting templar do the diplomacy with unlimited powers. templar said he would do it, but his patience with d7 might be a problem. Today I suggest: let me do the diplomacy! I think I'm best at what is now required in our current situation. (At least my patience is unlimited, and perhaps I can still save this hopeless situation...)
     
  6. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Location:
    on a learning curve
    that was expectable.

    however, we need to - at least officially - demand that they keep their deal with us. it was NOT a conditional trade, so it is binding. so if they decide to go like this, they are breaking a deal and should not expect to be perceived as potential trading partners in the future.

    if nobody objects, i will post something in our common thread tonight.

    templar_x
     
  7. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Location:
    on a learning curve
    sorry. rather not.
    you think that patience is always a good thing obviously. it is not. one needs to vary to be good in diplo, and i have the feeling you are ALWAYS the nice guy.

    so we should stay with what we currently do: everyone can post something there. and we make team decisions on the core diplo topics.

    t_x
     
  8. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,819
    Location:
    Heidelberg
    I agree completely. Perhaps we should even tell the Anarchos about this...

    :lol:
     
  9. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Location:
    on a learning curve
    I replied and tried to sound serious. Otherwise nobody is going to buy that we ourselves tried to keep our part of the deal. Since Calis addressed me personally in their post, I wrote one short email to him as well.

    templar_x
     
  10. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    4,403
    Anarhos deal vs Eagles deal.
    This analysis useless now, but better learn something to gain experience.

    My experience showed that interest rate in Civ about 2.5%/turn.
    That mean, that 16 gold approximately is equal 1 gpt. (Sum 1.025^-n 20 times).
    In another words inflation reduces pries of everything in the future. For realistically close 35 turn after Republic MA tech costs 800*1.025^-35=337. Our losses with Anarhos deal will be 363 gold. If they decided not to give MA tech loses will be 700.
    Both figures look terrible and I want to know what we are going to gain for that.

    Eagles will get Republic 10 turns later, pay 8 gpt and give MM.
    It is (700-300)*1.025^-10=312, 8 gpt from now approximately 127.
    Our profit of MA tech (60%, 35 turns later) is 480*1.025^-35=202.
    Therefore our profit will be 202+127-312=17 .
    If they will not give losses will be only 185.
    In addition it is lot less motivation to Eagles not to trade, because you have dilemma to get something or get nothing.
    We have missed this opportunity, unfortunately.
     
  11. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Location:
    on a learning curve
    here we are exactly on a line. i did not do the maths, but i am a businessman, and this is exactly what my gut feeling told me: it is the safer, more calculable and more reasonable deal. with the anarchos, we give them huge credit and bear all the risks of the deal. in business (and diplo) you have to calculate those risks into the price. so we should not be discussing anything of the details we currently do, but get 3 extra town spots and they should still say thank you that we are so generous.

    we lost the chance with the Eagles, if it was there, by democracy; and a good deal with the Anarchos by far less than perfect diplo and a unpredictable d7 on the other side.

    templar_x
     
  12. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    4,403
    May be it is not to late to consider the same deal with Kuches? We may offer 50% instead of 40%... The contract with Anarhos as it is says, that we can't trade until alliance settle. It might happen that it will be no Alliance with Anarhos, therefore we will be formally free from obligation not to trade Republic to third party.
    As I understood d7 is misbehaving again...
     
  13. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Location:
    on a learning curve
    double post
     
  14. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Location:
    on a learning curve
    not exactly, he is only being himself.

    yes, we would be formally free then, but we have no trade partner. Küche is unreliable too, they even negate the fact that most of all they are losing if they do not even talk to one of 2 tribes they know when there are only 4 nations total.

    templar_x
     
  15. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Location:
    on a learning curve
    They have posted some kind of explanation. I believe we had to respond in order to stay realistic.

    t_x
     
  16. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    4,403
    With whom? with us or with Anarhos?
    Re: story: From side view story of Eagles looks more convincing. Officially no deal was done yet.
    The same story with Curragh. No deal - Curragh sail forward. I believe better round down this story with Eagles. We will need their support if we are going to war with Kuche. It is a big danger now that Anarhos - Eagles will make secret agreement against us, or just Rep-MM deal we have planed ourselves. We, unfortunately, will not have this opportunity "not to give Anarhos MA tech" if they "broke Republic deal".
     
  17. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Location:
    on a learning curve
    I think we can safely assume that the Eagles gave the Küche CoL so that *they* can research Republic. If the Eagles convince the Anarchie, we are doomed. This is why we must not give Republic away without an alliance.

    Story need not be convincing. I was *there*, so I *know* what Calis wanted to say, and he said yes and yes to both. And he knows that, too, so even if we did not have any written word about it things would be clear enough between them and us.

    Re its documentation I have told you right after the deal was made that they *may* claim it was not made that way. But this does only apply to the Lit-MM-part, re no contact with Anarchie, he simply said they won´t proceed but they did.

    templar_x
     
  18. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    4,403
    We have a contract, and it is not clear, that we can quit if no Alliance will be signed.
    Depend on interpretation.
    What is , for sure, that we can trade Republic if no Alliance.
    May be. This is reason to put "document" at forum. Person to person letter may be interpret as "discussion." We showed, that we (you) note, but I don't think that in our interest to press further. Better ask (may be in e-mail again) if they still interested in Rep-MM deal.
    And if yes, and d7 moroning as usual we, probably may go #2 or #3 variant, (vote again, as planed).
     
  19. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Location:
    on a learning curve
    sure, we won't press for the MM-Lit-deal any longer. i am not even sure that it is very beneficial, if we really enter the alliance with the Anarchie and the other continent really researches MM now.

    it was only necessary that we at least act like we were really pissed over the Eagles not keeping their contract. of course it would have been better to have the signed version on the forum, but there was absolutely no chance for this with the little support i could lean on for any deals with the Eagles. we expected that they could withdraw when we do not give or promise them Rep, and this is what we see now.

    t_x
     
  20. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Location:
    on a learning curve
    I want to add one thing: I have never talked to Calis before this game, but I really like this guy. He is the only one doing anything that can be called diplomacy, in the entire game so far.

    t_x
     

Share This Page