Discussion in 'Civ4 - Realism Invictus' started by Houman, Sep 10, 2006.
Please discuss diplomacy in this thread.
(!) Addon to diplomacy (!)
Something like trading resources but differant and possibly hard to code:
1) What im thinking is to acctually "sell" and "buy" worker(including slaves), scouts, navy via diplomacy. What i want it to do is this:
When ever you/AI have a navy/scout/worker stationing in capitol, it can buy it as a resource (like iron) for 20 turns (10 turns is too small for worker), and "bought" worker instantly showes up in your capitol, but has no moves left, and costs no maintanance or just gives you +1 free unit, and works whith same speed as normal workers. After time runs off the trade is still active, but you no longer have this unit as a free one. When the person you bought the unit from decides the deal is done, this woker just dissapears from you country and comesback to its oner capitol.
Same thing would work whith scouts.
This was done on "slave" markets. Like Gladiators werent only thos that were cought by Romans, but also those that were bought from lets say Egypt.
For navy units its harder, as 2 condiion will have to be made in order to do this:
[a] Owner must have navy unit in its capitol, witch is also a harbor city.
Buyer needs a coastal Capitol.
2) The thing along the open border that is missing - improoving. Lets say you as a player can pay lets say 10 gold/turn, and the enemy will send some of his workers to do automated improvemants in your city exept chopping down trees and jungles, but can build all improvements the owner of this units has. For instance, you dont have animal husbandary and calender, so you cant build pasture and plantation, but if you hire improvemant works from a civ that has knows those technologies, than his worker can build those improvemants on your terrain.
Same thing should be let for you.
How ever paying cant be so easy, as you will agree to improve enemy, and you wont send a single worker to his country, but still recive the gold. This way i say it should be done this way:
[a] After you have Open Borders, you will be able to give, or take (needs permision from other side, might require war, friends, tribute, threat) the new diplomatic option "foreign works".
You wont get paid by turn, not from signing (unless signing this trade will give you a tribute of one time pay, or resource (strategic, luxuary, worker, scout, navy unit, gold in meaning of money not resource) per turn.
[c] The pay from working will be given to you when ever you will send a worker to enemy and start the improvemant (still cant pillage old ones, also meaning cant switch irigation into cottage, but can switch into mine when under a farm or cottage there is a resource that requires a mine eg copper).
The pay for work should look like this
5 gold for road (1/turn, and 2 for finish) [this may have problems whith stacked worker improving, when 2 workers build same improvemant on same title, so lets say in that case the work cost increases by 75% for every addonitional worker (adds only to base cost)]
30 gold for farm (3/turn, 9 for finish)
25 gold for mine (3/turn, 4 for finish)
30 gold for cottage (4/turn, 10 for finish)
50 gold for fort (5/turn, 10 for finish) [fort might have bad counting as i dont know how long it takes to build it] + fort can be constructed only on titles away from city radious.
20 gold for raildoad (2/turn, 10 for finish) [also might be worng calculated]
50 gold for lumbermill (4/turn, 10 for finish)
28 gold for windmill (2/turn, 10 for finish)
and so on.
3) Buying production (!)
Its reality, as Hitler bought production in russia before WW2. What i mean is in diplomatic screen, you can buy a foreign city whith opened border production allowing you to build units (only units) that will be affected (promotions and expitiance) by Buyers civics (like Feudalism, Theocracy) and wonders (Art of War), buy unit selection is limited to enemy technology and enemy resources (you can still give him/her your only Iron to make swordsman in her country), you can build your UU, but you cant create foreign UU, or foreign religion special units, unless you share same religion, but still the city in witch you bought must meet requiremants for production (access to Capitol in order to recive Iron, and cristianity, and cristian temple to build a Crusader).
Selecting the city is simple, you just select it like "selling city", so diplomatic menu should look like this:
production city cost:
So you just select a AI city (on AI side of diplomatic screen) and tham select "production city cost" and type in the cost in hammers (gold per turn window) and "production length" witch is the numbers of units you want to build in enemy city.
By saying "production cost" i mean the cost of every 10 hammers (i prefer shields as it was in civ3, just so used to it). So depanding on city production speed is your paying. For instance - if a city has 5 hammers, and your production cost is set to 2 gold for 10 hammers, that means you will pay that foreign civ 1 gold per turn.
Unfortunatly, when the city in witch you have bought production will be captured/razed by other AI/barbarian (well, barbarians are AI too, buy saing that they are [Artificial] inteligant is a mistake ) The deal is cancelled whith no negative result on disposition, and your production as well as gold is lost.
There is also a problem whith what the civ that have sold the production. Well also simple. When you will sell production city to foreign civ, the city witch you have sold will start building "[Foreign civ name] - [unit name]" (example : Spain - Swordsman) and this build will be wealth like. If it can bring any other beneficts than money for production, it may be also be culture, and sciance, as foreign culture in in your country. Also you cannot switch this production (all other in your city are darkned[unavailable], like crusader in Cristian country whith no temple build).
I know it can be dont. Faith dies last.
*This requires opened borders, opened borders cannot be canceled, when production city is bought.*
Pleeease revamp the UN. It just looks like you pc shat out data into a text box. Could you give it its own graphical window, or at least some formatting and color coding in the results box.
More proposal options would be good too, like trade sanctions against a civ that uses slavery, or uniting the council against one really powerful civ.
Since all civs seem to take slavery for a time, adding a slave trading option to diplomacy wouldnt be bad. Or you could enable them to be hired as mercenaries, but you get the one payment for them and thats it. They cannot be recalled back.
Wonder if Houman ever reads this threads ^^
The onyl good thing is that Posts are actually larger than sigs
I agree with you. At least the quality of the posts is more than: Oh my God I have a CTD what do I do.
I think there should be more UN Resolution like
1] Imposing of Embargo : You can get UN to pass resolution against a country to impose blockade of trade against a particular country.
It can be total blockade or partial like only on strategic minerals or bonus resources. It also can be very specific like Blockade of some particular resource like Uranium or Oil.
2] Option of joining UN : I think countries must be provided with option to join and leave UN. If a particular country joins UN it will not only avail its benefits but must also accept all its resolutions. And to make it realistic as well as fun, members of UN must get relations boost and people [if there is modern gov.] get happier.
3] I also feel nations must be provided with options to establish Organisations and Communities of there own.
It can be military organisation like NATO, with option of not only Def. pact but also Off. Pact.
Peaceful Orgs. can be like for combined Science Research, exchange of Non Combatants like Settler Worker and will provide Relation boost if these nations are trading partners.
Though Organistion could be established from medieval Age but upkeep must be there with regards to its participation.
On the question of defensive pacts, permanent alliances, etc... A lot could be improved by just allowing permanent alliances to involve more than 2 countries. Even allowing 2 different permanent alliances to combine into one big one. Would love to see 18 civs divided into 3 large permanent alliances at the end of a game, let the war to end all wars begin!
Diplomacy is such a tough one it seems, maybe the developers could give us some guidance about what is really possible in changing the diplomacy functions and what things are either too hard to code or won't be handled well by the AI?
Other things that have bothered me is that there is no dynamics to diplomacy, you delcare war on someones friend, they are going to remember that for 1000's of years. Some of these modifiers should decay over time perhaps.
Striking the right balance while completely overhauling the diplomacy in Civ IV seems like a tough project.
I agree. Negative modifiers should be forgotten over time. I would hope that france has forgiven germany for the repeated invasions, especially given that very few if any responsible for those invasions are still alive.
I think maybe open borders should only be allowed for countries taht are pleased with each other. i dont think a country who is cautious would allow another countries' military to cross across their land. Or better yet the implementation of two types of open borders. open trade and the open borders to allow passage of military units..(i think someone mentioned this before) however i think it would be quite difficult to get the ai to correctly use this.
what about being able to offer open borders for money or something?
but either way i think this could possibly deserve some consideration
yes, at least i am reading all your posts. but now i have too much work at work and too much problem with this CTD debugging, so i am unable to react to every post
Yes if you raze a holy city and they change to another religion the offence should be forgotten.
What about forgiveness or amnestia.
Like when i attack any one i will have "-1 you declared a war against us" for the rest of the game.
Good we have you have "traded whith our worst enemies" get erazed as you seaze all active trades, and never trade whith him.
Also religion disposition changes.
But thing as "you refused to give us tribute" "you made and arrogant demand" "you declared war on us" "you brought friends against us" "you razed our city" stay to the end of game.
"you razed out holy city" penalty should stay for ever. Even after he will switch to other religion as they can never forget what you did to their history, old religion and culture.
One thing I hate with diplomacy is being asked to declare war against someone, an live with the consequences.
Warring countries can be substained with other means than direct involvment (see USA in WWII with GB). What I would love to see is a 3rd option in the middle:
1: declare war
1.5: we can't get involved directly at the moment, but we want to help out...
2: we won't go to war
Of course this would obviously reflect on the boni and mali.
See if this makes any sense for you.
PS: And yes, I agree on a forgetful AI...
I like this idea, and there are many more like it that would be great to implement, especially considering how poor the diplomacy is to begin with, but is this an example of something that might be easy to code, but difficult for the AI to use well?
I know Mexico is coding like mad, maybe Houman could talk a little bit about what kinds of things seem doable and an example of something that would be next to impossible.
As an aside, I think the trading and/or sharing of information could be a part of diplomacy. For example, you could trade or buy the information that a spy or an informant has on an enemy Civ through the diplomacy screen. Buying this information wouldn't reveal everything inside the Civ's borders that you are buying from, but rather any cities of other Civ's that they are able to see, either by being nearby or having a spy or informant on the scene.
I feel there is so much to be done with this aspect of the game, there should be more grey area in relations between Civ's, but of course, balancing wholesale changes in diplomacy might be the toughest part of it all. No one wants to see Happy Hippos return or Civ's that end up in constant warfare.
Nice, but note that opened borders increace your disposition. So not sure if it were to change at all.
Nice, but note that opened borders increace your disposition. So not sure if it were to change at all.
BTW: in spanish "copa del Rey" player named Paz (from Cadiz) score a hattrick and owngoal his team won 3:2
Some option for the player to enable a "refuses to talk" would be very nice. Even other civs that hate me are making annoying diplomatic proposals every turn. (esp. thinkin of my special friend genghis khan, damn horsewhisperer).
Yes a setting 'refuse to talk' would be good. Sometimes you just want to be isolationist or focus on whats really going on than hear the constant "can i have a free technology", the threats, offers to join wars etc etc.
Bah! Im taking over the world, i dont want to hear your pathetic whining, or requests! (That would be an amusing response option)
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