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Diplomatic Marriages and Science Victories

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by SS-18 ICBM, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

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    So, I've started a game as Austria on Emperor, and I'm wondering what is better for me in the long run to achieve my favorite victory more efficiently. When is it better to leave a City State an ally? Should I annex the ones I married or puppet them so I can get the Rationalism policies? Other advice you can give?
     
  2. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Emperor

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    Play the game quickly because the new patch will drastically change how Austria's UA works? ;)
     
  3. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

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    I don't think the change renders my questions of "ally or marry?" and "annex or puppet?" moot. It does seem that keeping Mercantile CS allies is better, as you lose the unique resource when you take over them.
     
  4. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Emperor

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    Depends on the difficulty and the map.

    G&K has made puppeting much weaker. I wouldn't bother with marrying a city state only to puppet it. So if I were to marry a city state I would almost certainly annex it.

    Before the patch hits, you can annex a city state and then disband all of its units to help recover the cost.

    I often find the benefits of keeping a cs ally to outweigh the benefits of marrying it. Cultural and maritime city states provide really valuable effects.

    If you don't need the units and/or the Militaristic CS provides a crappy unique unit, that might make it a good candidate for marriage. If you no longer need Religious faith or you reach Industrial and things are too expensive anyway, you can annex Religious CS. If you don't need happiness or you already have Porcelain and Jewelry, you can probably annex the extra Mercantile CS (after the Patch, it looks like Porcelain and Jewelry may disappear after annexing).

    You might want to marry city states with lots of military units if you are at war.

    You might want to marry a city state if you have been competing with another major civ for control of it.

    You might want to marry a city state that is strategically placed (especially useful on Continents to establish a beachhead on the other continent).

    You might want to marry a city state with lots of luxuries that you want to then sell to other civs.

    You might want to marry a city state because it is more developed than you are (more likely on higher difficulty levels).

    You might want to marry a city state if it has access to special tiles (especially Natural Wonders and if you are Spain).
     
  5. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

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    Why would Continents be different from, say, Pangaea?

    The main advantage of annexation is being able to control production. I think it would be better to annex only those cities with good production tiles, since I have no intention of spending my money on buildings for cities with only grassland tiles.

    Yeah, Maritime CSs are on my "no marriage" list.

    Didn't think of that. Although I could use the faith for Great Scientists. I'll have to think about it.

    I don't know, all my City States seem to have only one copy of a luxury resource. Although I can sell their strategic resources.

    Oh, imagine both Great Barrier Reef tiles. Wait, how can Spain marry a City State?

    Thanks for the valuable input. I think that covers every City State situation.
     
  6. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    For a science victory, Pangea offers three main benefits over Continents, which can result in much faster finish times:

    1. With all of the civs on one continent, you will have the maximum number of trading partners and potential CS friends and allies from the get-go, assuming you are reasonably diligent about scouting (and, for Austria, that also means the maximum choice of CS marriage candidates). With Continents, you won't get the additional trading partners (and CSs) until you or they research Astronomy (or you take a Great Admiral with the Liberty finisher or the Mayan great count, if you are playing Mayans -- you can also take two policies in Commerce, but presumably you are already into Rationalism by then, and don't want to divert).

    2. You can completely (or almost completely) ignore the whole sailing/optics/compass/astronomy/navigation tech path until later in the game, allowing you to bee-line Acoustics and get into Rationalism. You might take sailing relatively early if you have a coastal city and need some sea-based luxury or fish resource or want to send one trireme to meet off-shore CSs. You might also choose to hard-research Astronomy for observatories, if you have a decent science city next to a mountain, but that still requires that you get into the Renaissance, which you can do with Astronomy, but Acoustics is usually quicker.

    3. You will save innumerable hammers not building work boats, triremes, caravels and such, which may allow you to get NC done sooner, or build that additional settler, or whatever may be more directly helpful for your science victory.

    Ranking the maps in terms of likely science victory speed, Pangea beats Continents, which beats Large Islands and Archipeligo.
     
  7. FromBirth

    FromBirth Chieftain

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    Why do you say that? Do you just mean in relation to Marriages or in general?
     
  8. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    truly wonder about this question and even more the discussion, if u dont intend marying/annexing CS austria is maybe the wrong civ

    You should play Austria occ (or 2) City sytle and then midgame before universities anex few CS to be able to build/buy universitieries there and fill them.

    In fact this strategy is just op and offers a deity win every1 can do (water based map helps even more)

    also pretty laughable to compare 3 food to a size 10 city with buildings and units
     
  9. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    thats absolutly not true for higher difficulties (deity), wars, especially defensive ones slow much more down as everything else. Dont think u can avoid war on deity pangea easily.
     
  10. Genghis.Khan

    Genghis.Khan Person

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    Well, You can´t be Austria AND Spain at the same time

    :mischief:
     
  11. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Emperor

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    Pangaea lets you meet everyone early on. Continents means half the world isn't discovered until Astronomy.

    If you are playing Domination or want to stop a runaway civ on the other continent, Continents is interesting because you may want to purposely marry and annex a city on the other side of the world.

    Oh for Spain I meant annex vs puppeting (and not marrying). But a similar principle applies.


    Since G&K (or maybe the patch that hit just before G&K), puppets have their culture and lots of their other output decreased by 25% or so.
     
  12. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

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    Sure, but if marrying the CS is a weaker option, then even as Austria it's not something you should do.

    That food goes to my capital, which is where I generally build the National College, not to mention the Landed Elite and Monarchy bonuses.
     
  13. LostInTime

    LostInTime Warlord

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    If the city state is close to you. Marry. (you do not want them to invade you if you get declared on at some point when the spies are flipping all over tre place)

    If they are far away and have bonuses you need (happy, culture or food usually) keep em.

    If they have tons of units, and you feel like grabbing some more land over there. Marry ;)

    It's really not that hard to pick. Annex vs puppeting can be harder. But I end up annexing most of the time anyways since you should be running with lots of gold, and with gold you get them up properly quick. (not to mention they usually have tons of good buildings in them anyways)
     
  14. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Annex as soon as you have the cash to buy a courthouse. Unless you can afford the unhappiness while you build one... in that case, don't wait. CS are tall cities, so you absolutely want to control their tiles and specialists as soon as possible. Heck, you can use a CS to build wonders. You also probably want to limit their growth. That can be done by destroying farms... they almost always come with a free worker. Still, annexing is easier.

    If you're playing aggressively, marry whichever CS gives the biggest military advantage, whether due to placement, units or a missing strategic resource. If you're playing defensively, don't be Austria. You're wasting it. ;-)

    Seriously though, you can use marriage to boost a science victory, but a cultural victory is only going to be made harder by marriage unless you have the Sistine Chapel. (IMHO)

    I don't think Austria works for a diplomatic victory at all. Yes, you can yoink one of their allied CS, but it reduces the number of votes needed by 1, effectively meaning you haven't hurt their total at all, nor improved your own number of votes, and worse, you've lost a vote by marrying your new ally.

    So, either go science or domination IMHO. Even with the patch, marriage will still be effective at boosting beakers, but the true value of marriage IMHO is for establishing beachheads with instant attack forces.

    For example, if none of your cities are coastal, marrying a coastal CS near an enemy's capital is a huge win, especially if that CS already has numerous ships. You can quickly strike from out of the blue and take a capital before they even have time to react. You can also cap unprotected frontier cities via sudden land invasion.

    Autocracy works wonders by the way. The faster building of courthouses, combined with the extra happiness, turns Austria into a late-game monster. You can literally chew up a new CS every few turns, without making a dent in your happiness. The patch will not change that, although on Deity it might be tough to stay allied for 6 turns.

    Oh, and if you're aggressively expanding, don't marry Mercantile CS. Keep them as allies.

    I tend to be more opportunistic in practice though. Maintaining Ally status isn't reliable, so take what you can get, especially if you have no quests and are about to lose Ally status. But only do it if that city would be a worthy addition, or if you need to ensure your opponents don't get it.

    Oh, and one last thing. Be careful about marrying CS near people you've promised not to expand towards. The AI considers it the same as building a city for that purpose, so the promise will be considered broken, and that will negatively affect your diplomacy across the boards!
     
  15. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    honestly?
    still trying to argue that 3 food might be better as a fully developed city?

    really wonder why people bother with building settlers .....

    :crazyeye:

    obviously u have to think about happyness before anexing that why u should think which CS to anex but then there shouldnt be too much happynes problems if u dont have too many other cities and know that happyness is only real problem for austria.

    The production which have to go into settler and units with other civs can go straight into wonders and happynes buildings - just pretty op ...
     
  16. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

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    Ehh, I wanted to play a more peaceful game this time. At least I'll have an easy way to deal with runaways.

    I suspected as much.

    Okay, looks like I have to spell it out for you. I'd rather have the extra pop from mercantile CS in my capital, the research center with the most science multipliers at earlier time points that is also protected by my most veteran spy.
     
  17. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    If you look at it purely from from an espionage perspective, it's better to *not* have one super tall city. It's hard to steal science from a small city in a wide empire. The ultimate espionage blocker though is to keep cities small and fill out enough of patronage to get the science boost. I've seen AI civs be #1 in tech and have not one viable espionage target for me to steal from.

    Patronage isn't exactly the fastest route to a science victory though, especially for Austria, but having your research spread out evenly is still a viable anti-espionage tactic that lets you focus your spies on marriage. Tall isn't necessarily a good thing with Austria imho.
     
  18. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Emperor

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    From a competitive point of view, you obviously don't want other civs stealing all your techs.

    However, people have pointed out (and I've been convinced by these people) that it doesn't really matter if the other civs are stealing your techs if you're playing peacefully or are already clearly ahead. If anything, it allows them to progress through the eras so that your Research Agreements with them cost less.
     
  19. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    So u r doing it wrong on multiple levls.

    1 more pop ll give u like 10 bakkers if even that many.
    A full developed city with univesity like 100
    100>10?

    not to speak of the other nonsense u had in this post
     
  20. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    Never. Marriage is completely overpowered.
     

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