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Diplomatic Victory Dogpile

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by steveg700, Aug 4, 2019.

  1. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    I don't understand how you can do this. In my last game, even the players I had a level 3 alliance with, and had been allied with the entire game, voted for the -3 points for me, and I was at 11/20 DV points, so I was not even remotely close to winning.
     
  2. Karmah

    Karmah Emperor Supporter

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    I don't what inputs I could to add to the recipe. I don't master the favor mechanics, far from it. As I said it is accidental except at the end where I try to avoid losing point, jjust by ego, by massively voting for myself and there I happened to win.
    I don't know if being green in grievances across the board affects my favor generation but I now red ones do. And they have quite some red because they push themselves too far on diplomacy. I do manipulate my opponents through diplo to hurt their own reputation , something I picked in civ4. In civ5 I used to win fascist CV with Brazil by having the world hating each other. Something that does not make me laugh anymore looking at the current state of the world. 'Too close to home' comes to mind.
     
  3. Horizons

    Horizons Needing fed again!

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    It seems as though DV is just a mechanism to punish a warmongering human player and make it less easy to win a domination victory.
     
    Victoria likes this.
  4. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Getting rid of Victory Conditions around Diplomacy and Religion would unshackle both mechanics, and them both be more interesting and fun.

    Religion and World Congress / Diplo Favour are both great mechanics. But FXS really made a fundamental mistake tying them to VCs. The VCs themselves really aren’t that interesting and the mechanics are hamstrung by having to be balanced against the potential to win the game by concentrating on these mechanics.
     
    Staal likes this.
  5. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    I didn't find winning a DV that hard, at least on Emperor. It basically seems to be about controlling all the city-states - the main source of favor, and spending small amounts of favor early to make sure you are on the winning side of every 'small' vote. They only managed to 'dogpile' once, and then they were out of favor.

    I do agree it definitely is an artificially 'longer' victory than say even culture or science. I think they should introduce a mechanism where you can spend favor to call a regular sessions outside of the 30 turn window (or even call a vote to make it more frequently).
     
  6. Bitterman

    Bitterman Warlord

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    How about this: if you are ally of a said civ, each vote against them in the congress when voting for diplomatic points costs you double diplo favour.

    This way you still can gang against someone trying to win diplo victory but it will come at a price.
     
    Staal and kaspergm like this.
  7. shaky

    shaky Chieftain

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    I'd suggest that the AI just needs to value diplomatic favour a lot less than it does at the moment. The ability to trade for their favour would go a long way to solving the impasse we get every time congress rolls around and the best you can hope for if you're chasing a diplomatic victory is to win 3 points and lose 3 points. It would also help balance the economy in early to mid game where the ludicrous money to be made selling diplo favour to the AI currently renders every other source of gold fairly insignificant.
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  8. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Well, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Gold is certainly not hard to come by in the late game, and I don't think the solution should be to just go to the AI and buy out all of their favor.

    What I would prefer is that the game impose some notion of inflation. If the average GPT is into three digits, maybe it's time for stuff to start getting more expensive.
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  9. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    I think you both have valid points here. AI deffinitely values Diplomatic Favor way too high in early game. I'm not sure whether it does also in late game, but there's no doubt that gold is many times more accessible in late game.

    Another way around this would be to have the AI value it's Diplomatic Favor scaled with the number of Diplomatic Victory points you have. So the more DV points you have, the less willing the AI is to sell their favor to you.
     
    steveg700 likes this.
  10. shaky

    shaky Chieftain

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    I think there needs to be some sort of consistent mechanic that allows us to trade for favour/congress support from friendly or allied civs. Financial incentives seem the obvious method to me, and fairly grounded in real life diplomacy. I wouldn't be too unhapppy if a diplomatic victory ended up being partially an economic victory. Anything would be better than the current route to a diplomatic victory.

    Favour is designed to be a tradeable commodity. It would obviously need to be very expensive in the late game, but it does need to have a price. The AI just point blank refuses to sell even 1 DF for anything at the moment.
     
  11. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Not a bad idea. I think it would also be worthwhile for the AI to scale its valuation based on the ratio of DF disparity between the two parties.

    That's true, it does need to be something that can actually be negotiable in some fashion.

    Something the game needs in general is more focus on emergencies, quests, missions, whatever you want to call them. It shouldn't just be about earning some ubiquitous currency by spamming city-sates with envoys and creating trade-route alliances. Problem is, this is a game of procedural activities without much in the way of elective actions. That's why city projects are inserted into events as "way-to-accomplish-stuff-without-war". That's why the world's fair and nobel prize events are just about passively earning GP points. That's why city-state quests are just things you're likely to do anyway.

    An idea I've suggested before is for a dialogue option to be able to ask AI civ's how their relationship with us can be improved. They could ask us to make a promise (with the usual duration and consequences for breaking and keeping it), and we'd earn DF every turn that we maintain it. Still passive in and of themselves, but at least it would lend itself to some choices and consequences. So, you might have to let someone get away with becoming the suzerain of a city-state you were courting, or outright conquering it. Or you might wind up promising not to settle near a civ, and wind up letting them take choice territory. That sort of thing.
     

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