Diplomatic Victory Elimination Thread

[Pietato]

21. Kristina/Sweden [51]
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [28] Suzerainty gives so much more than just DF, which are also crucial to winning a DV. On larger maps will out DF Teddy as well. Also, I only play on deity, and CSes do not get purged by the AI like people seem to think.
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [36] Consistent DF but nothing else. I also prefer Synthetic Technocracy for DV, which Teddy cannot take if he wants max DF.

 

[Victoria]

Voting 3 hours early as I have to go out. but will be voting later each day after today due to work.

21. Kristina/Sweden [52] (51+1) Started another game with her just to double check. On average (and without running projects) throughout 150 turns she generated a GP every 6 turns with 7 cities which works out to roughly 8 favour per turn additional to CS/Government favour. To avoid a CV you just to do not use great works but instead place your GP on wonders and districts to stop someone using rock bands against you, or just delete them if you cannot be bothered.
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [28] A great argument over the denial aspect of Mathias. He denies other people getting favour by hogging CS but this is stronger in an MP game. in an SP game as Kristina I just used spies to kill of envoys all the time and strategic envoy cards and quests and Matthias AI does not play this game well, especially if he is not running for a DipV.
Consider also that while there is no additional favour for Matthias, every Suzerain while 1 favour for you as worth a lot more taken away from others as those multiple votes against you stack up to huge amounts of favour. Denial is a powerful tool.
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [33] (36-3) so with Potala palace you end up with 4 favour per turn extra. guaranteed but not able to double with a wonder(Matthias) or increase % with a government or wonder (Kristina). 4 favour per turn as opposed to Kristinas 8 (without running a project all game) is a no brainer but versus Matthias on paper it is hard, but playing Matthias it becomes clear you can really abuse envoy gain and it gets incredibly cheap to do so, especially if you can suicide your troops. So its a - for teddy from me. Teddies +5 combat bonus is nice and that makes it hard but as we seem to be using peaceful approaches to this or it becomes another dom vote I have toned that consideration down for me.

 

[Weraptor]

21. Kristina/Sweden [53] (52+1) The winner.
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [25] (28-3) All has been stated.
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [33]

 

[lotrmith]

21. Kristina/Sweden [53]
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [26] (25 + 1) Nobody, and I mean nobody, is winning a DV in multiplayer. That's a pretty silly consideration, in my opinion, please don't do that if we end up voting on religious victory later on.
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [30] 33 - 3 So overrated. Fixed, LOW DF gains that can easily be outdone by others. Reminder: His ability gets max +2 DF/turn in Classical, +3 in Renaissance, +4 in Modern. Sure, he can build a couple wonders to increase that. There are envoy wonders too. (And GPP wonders for Kristina, for that matter, who can also convert production directly into DF via projects).

Also flavour is a valid voting consideration. You're free to consider only your opinion of strength, while others are free to consider only their opinion of fun (in this thread we eliminated war mongers despite a substantial argument in their favor largely because we felt that was 'against the spirit of the DV' and also 'why not just win Dom at that point). Worth noting though at least in my case it's not just that Teddy is boring but also that he's considerably less powerful.

 

[Leucarum]

21. Kristina/Sweden [54] (53+1)
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [26]
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [27] (30-3)

I hadn't considered the utility of how well hungary can deny city states to others. They are the best at controlling CS in the game and that probably pushes them above teddy...

 

[TeddyMain]

21. Kristina/Sweden [54]
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [23] [26-3]
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [28] [27+1]

Denial is a powerful tool agreed, but it doesn't really work against civs that can independently generate favor, so i highly doubt Matthias could beat Teddy and Kristina in a race for DV.

 

[Kwami]

21. Kristina/Sweden [54]
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [20] (23 - 3) Realistically, how much more DF is Matthias going to get from suzerains than anyone else would? I don't think I've ever played a game where I couldn't get at least half of the suzerains. So, for a small to standard map, you're talking about maybe 4-6 DF per turn, if you can actually get the suzerain bonus on every city state, which certainly isn't guaranteed. And, since Hungary doesn't have a way to meet those city states early, and since Gold isn't limitless in the early game, you don't get most of that DF until sometime later.
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [29] (28 + 1) On the other hand, Teddy always gets his DF. Anywhere from 2-8, plus up to 2 more from wonders. Always, no matter what. Nobody can deny him his DF and he doesn't have to spend any resources whatsoever to get it. All the Gold that Matthias is spending? Teddy can use it to buy buildings and units, letting him focus more on important wonders (three provide Diplomatic Victory points, one provides bonus DF from suzerains, and two provide Teddy with more DF from government slots) and other such things.

 

[leandrombraz]

21. Kristina/Sweden [54]
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [17] (20-3)
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [30] (29+1) - I'm almost converting to Kristinaism but I'll give america a chance to fight today. I might swap to Sweden tomorrow.

As for Hungary, denying City-States to the AI is a good point but I would like to make some observations:

• The AI have a tendency to leave City-states without a suzerain, often investing only enough to take the suzerain from another City but not enough to get for themselves. The number of City-States without a suzerain is usually high. It's more common for the player to fight to keep their own suzerainty than to deny it to the AI. The AI already do a good job denying it to themselves;
• The AI usually don't invest all their favors, even in resolutions where they give multiple votes, so even though denying a favor source to the AI is definitely strong, in practice it might not change much since that favors would just sit there, unused. In this sense, your own favors might be more important, to be sure that you have enough "ammo" if brute force is required to win a resolution. The AI can do more with less because of how the votes cost scale but will they do it?
• Any Civ can deny City-States to the AI, granted, off course, that "envoy civs" are better at it, mostly Hungary.

As I said before, we're splitting hairs here but I still think Hungary gets a third place.

 

[kryat]

21. Kristina/Sweden [54]
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [18] (17+1)
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [27] (30-3)

Hungary is able to get more than usual CS suzerains faster than Teddy can get the bonus wildcard slots, meaning he has an easier time winning votes in the first half of the game. With a single envoy and a levy, you can suzerain, so you could easily have 2-4 extra suzerains in the early-mid game, compared to Teddy’s 1-2 bonus favor. In the late game, you could have 4-8 extra CS you might not normally have, which is probably about as good as Teddy, unless you build the wonder.

Otherwise, I’d also say Matthias’s other abilities and units also beat out Teddy’s, helping with the victory overall. Having tons of envoys means all buildings are stronger on average. Fast build across rivers means you are developing faster (especially since no policy card boosts buildings except in encampments and harbors). Levying lets you play the globe better, potentially responding to more emergencies or quashing other empires’ development. Compared to stronger combat on your own continent and a few more wild cards slots, I’d say Hungary is a bit better (though I won’t argue that America is also a very strong civ).

 

[Datgingah]

21. Kristina/Sweden [51] (54-3) Obviously good but I think overall America should be making more diplomatic favor, and it should be making it more consistently.
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [18]
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [28] (27+1) See above

 

[bengalryan9]

21. Kristina/Sweden [51]
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [15] (18-3) Spies can shut his bonus down. Easier to counter than both Kristina and Teddy means he finishes behind both. I also play on deity and in my experience the game ends with maybe 4 city states left standing. I'll agree that the bigger the map the better he is, but conversely this means the smaller the map the worse he is.
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [28] (29+1) There is no counter to his favor bonus. It just keeps rolling in steady as can be regardless of map size, income, number of cities he has, number of city states remaining, number of great people he generates, etc.

 

[enKage]

21. Kristina/Sweden [51]
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [16] 15+1 I am a simple Pole, wherever I see Hungary, I press Like. Polak, Węgier, dwa bratanki / Lengyel, magyar – két jó barát / Polish, Hungarian - two brothers
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [25] 28-3 Only DF, no cash, no culture

 

[Pietato]

21. Kristina/Sweden [51]
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [17] Still the strongest DV civ, especially when you mix in combat.
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [22] While the irony of the most warlike nation on the planet winning the DV contest would be delicious, I am still going to have to downvote them due to their lack of anything other than steady DF generation.

 

[lotrmith]

21. Kristina/Sweden [51]
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [18] 17 + 1 I've never once ever seen an AI spy use Fabricate Scandal.
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [19] 22 - 3 Forced civic paths for forced government selections.

 

[Flaxton]

21. Kristina/Sweden [52] 51 + 1 Wins extra VP through Peace prize
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [18]
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [16] 19-3 Just not exciting/varied enough outside of DV generation

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

21. Kristina/Sweden [52]
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [15] (18-3)
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [17] (16+1)

I love playing as Kristina, and she truly is a diplomatic/cultural juggernaut. I still think Teddy is a bit better than Hungary. Obviously it's more fun as Matt, but Teddy deserves at least 2nd with all that free DF you get no matter what.

 

[Kwami]

21. Kristina/Sweden [52]
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [12] (15 - 3)
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [18] (17 + 1)

Matthias depends on city states surviving, has to compete with other players, and has to invest lots of Gold to get his DF. Teddy gets his for free and nothing can stop it. Teddy also probably gets more DF in most games. The choice is clear.

 

[SirMediocrity]

21. Kristina/Sweden [53] (52+1) Awesome diplomatic bonuses that cooperate with their other styles of play nicely.
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [9] (12 - 3) Relies too much on city-states.
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [18]

 

[bengalryan9]

21. Kristina/Sweden [53]
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6] (9-3) Can be countered.
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [19] (18+1) Cannot be countered. Kristina's better but she's got this one in the bag and doesn't need my vote.

 

[leandrombraz]

21. Kristina/Sweden [54] (53+1) - I, for one, welcome our overlord
25. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [3] (6-3)
41. Teddy Roosevelt/America [19]