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Diplomatic Victory needs to be looked at

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Piobmhor, Aug 6, 2013.

  1. Piobmhor

    Piobmhor Chieftain

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    As of now, Diplomatic victory in BNW is way too easy to achieve, for the player and the AI. I don't know in how many games I have had to deliberately sabotage my chances to avoid an early diplomatic victory. I now switch off the victory type for all my games. There needs to be more hurdles or requirements. Perhaps a certain science discovery?
     
  2. Ryoga

    Ryoga King

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    I think diplomacy votes should go back to how it was in G&K i.e. a civ cannot vote for itself.
    Moreover I'd make CS count as a single entity so the CS will count as if they were a major civ collectively and they will vote for the civ that has the highest amount of CS allies (they abstain in case of a draw), this would also have the effect of making Austria's and Venice's shenanigans become a lot less influential for the purpose of a diplomatic victory.

    The system of 1 vote gain for the two highest voted civs after a failed election can remain and the amount of votes needed should be calibrated in a way that victory can only be achieved after a few failed elections barring an exceptional performance in making friends.
     
  3. kwidem

    kwidem Warlord

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    This.
     
  4. headcase

    headcase Limit 1 Facepalm Per Turn

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    I would increase the number of delegates needed to win. Then I would have three or four Atomic era proposals where "for the next 30 turns, whenever a civ does X, it permanently gains a delegate". The AI would probably suck at this though. Plus I haven't thought the "X" part through yet.

    I actually somewhat like the current system, or would if the AI would compete for CSs before votes (also, bribing CSs should have diminishing returns so you can't just take them all at the last moment).
     
  5. mrwho

    mrwho Prince

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    I wouldn't nerf CS allies that much, but I agree they're too influential. I'd probably have a first / second / third system, based on CS influence. The civ with the most CS influence (not sure if it should be numerical or simply by counting no.of allies and friends) would get 'first', of course. The delegate system would remain the same. First place would either get half of the total number of City States or half of the number of allies they have (rather than 100% now), whatever is the smallest, with second and third getting half and half again (minimum of 1). I think this would be a fairer way of balancing CS infulence so you'd at least need SOME AI support but CSs would still play a very important roll. I also would keep the ability to vote for yourself but make the AI far more likely to vote for a friend, although I'm not really sure how that would work in multiplayer.

    This wouldn't be required if the AI actually tried to stop the human player winning, and if gold gifts had a 'cooldown' for all CSs so they became less effective for a certain time period after multiple use.
     
  6. adwcta

    adwcta King

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    By far the worst part of the BNW changes IMO.

    And you know what? They can't make it so you can no longer vote for yourself (technical matter) without forcing it for all your delegates (which would then make accumulating delegates a bad thing instead of a good thing). It's just a horribly designed system no one thought through. The most they can do is allow you to buy AI's 4 base votes in the end, the way you can for the entire game, but that doesn't affect MP. Still, it'd be something.

    As it stands, this is just awful. There's no diplo in the diplo victory.
     
  7. Drewbdu

    Drewbdu Chieftain

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    I wish that you would not be able to buy votes for the world leader, or it would not be viable. As in, it would have to be a ridiculous deal in order for them to vote for you.

    Also, I wish that if a civ knows it can't win through the world congress, then it will vote for the civ that it has the best relations with.
     
  8. eldiablonoche

    eldiablonoche Chieftain

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    I agree that Diplo is too easy; my last 3 games (all Emperor) I coasted into diplo wins and spent the last 40-50 turns basically just Next Turning until the vote comes up. I'm acheivement hunting and just hit the Diplo-Freedom and Diplo-Autocracy wins and both of those Ideologies make Diplo even easier than cash buying CS's for the win...

    Between Gunboat Diplomacy -which isn't even as powerful as the Freedom tenet which gives influence for having a CS trade route- and regular quests, I didn't even need to buy off any CS and ended my last game with 13k in gold (saved it in case the AI actually tried something to win). I even had Austria in my game and she allied exactly ZERO CSs all game!
     
  9. eldiablonoche

    eldiablonoche Chieftain

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    Have you pulled this sort of trade off? Just to see if I could, I offered a couple AIs 11k gold + 250GPT + 5 unique luxes, all my Alumin, Coal, and Oil, and they still wouldn't consider voting me World Leader in my last game.

    What did you offer that they'd take?
     
  10. Tachii

    Tachii Procrastinator

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    I don't know why this always get made but, isn't all the victories "easy" provided you learned how to win it? I guess diplomacy is just the easiest to learn.

    You can "easily" grab culture victories now, so people claim. Domination victories seem to be always "easy". So apparently science is the hardest because it takes the longest, but... you're still essentially clicking "next turn" over and over again. I feel like it's more about people should just be jumping to difficulties they feel more challenged in, rather than the conditions itself.

    When civ5 first came out I felt diplomatic victory was fine as it is. I like the changes they made nowadays, but it seems users are never satisfied. World congress still feel fresh to me since I can just pull random cool scenarios like making a bunch of nukes and signing a pact for others not to make them, lol.

    The game is fun as is. Some of the diplomacy mechanics need to be changed for the AI, but I don't think the victory condition needs to be (I WANT A CUTSCENE THOUGH). Meh.
     
  11. adwcta

    adwcta King

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    I don't think it's possible, for now.

    I think his response was to my suggestion that they program the AI to allow for this. It would be realistic, because major civs sometimes vote for each other to lead things. It would be bad for game-strategy, because if you're aware that this is a game and there is a victory condition, you would never vote for someone else to win (although, the AI is otherwise generally unaware that you're nearing a victory condition, or else the entire world would DoW you when you're nearing any VC, so not sure why this would be any different). I don't know, I'm conflicted on it. But I do know that the current system is not just broken, but plain un-fun. And almost everyone on these forums / irl that I talk to who play this game think the diplo victory as it stands is pretty stupid and a confusing step back from G&K.

    If there's one thing I want from the fall patch, it's an overhaul of the diplo victory condition. Yes, I want this even more than improved AI. ::gasp::
     
  12. OmniPotent42

    OmniPotent42 King

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    They just need to make the ai actually fight for a diplo victory instead of hoarding all of their gold.
     
  13. superliminal

    superliminal Warlord

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    I was thinking about this, since I've sort of accidentally walked into a diplo win without trying as well. It seems like the current mechanics are fine, but that the AI needs improvement in actively trying to prevent you from achieving a win. If there are warmongering civs on the map, they should be actively trying to take out city states allied with you, to try and block your vote. Likewise, peaceful Civs should be more actively trying to compete with you for city-state influence, forcing you to really try to spend every dime you have. The only AI I've seen do this effectively is Greece, where if he gets a lock on a few choice city-states, it become really difficult to uproot him. On a similar note, I feel like the AI used to try and stop your win. I remember a very memorable culture game where I was building Utopia, and 10 turns before it was finished I had a war on two front with a tech superiority, and I barely held them off. It seems like the AI just sits tight no matter what victory you pursue now, with the exception of domination of course.
     
  14. aljung

    aljung Chieftain

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    The most annoying part of the diplo victory is the bribing 1 turn before votes. To solve this, the instant benefit of bribery should be reduced. To keep gold gifting a viable option there would be a few solutions:

    - Bribing does not increase influence, but instead prevents the per turn decrease for X turns.
    - Similar mechanic: gold gifts grant influence every turn for X turns rather than instantly.
    - Change bribing to Gold per turn for X turns and gain influence after those turns or gradually during the turns.
     
  15. tat501

    tat501 Warlord

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    Or perhaps bribing makes it more difficult for other AI's to gain influence instead? More focus should be made to CS quests (and there should be more types of them). More influence should be gained for going to war against an invading Civ attacking or bullying a CS - i.e. Kuwait vs Saddam Hussein's Iraq being stopped by America etc.

    Additionally CS's could have Ideologies which spread to them like religion does - they'll only vote for a person with the same ideology - don't know how the pressure system would work but I think that's an idea with potential - you could invade the CS to remove its government and change it to your ideology (a la Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia and Hungary etc - or Coup their government to your ideology. This wouldn't ally them to you as it does now, but it would make them eligible to vote for you in the Congress because they are now "aligned" to your world view).
     
  16. niftymbm

    niftymbm Chieftain

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    How about if you reduce the number of delegates a city state has so it'll be more important to convince the major civs to vote for you?
     
  17. tat501

    tat501 Warlord

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    But they'll never vote for you for world leader no matter what you do (unless they think you can't win it) so you'll never be able to win!
     
  18. niftymbm

    niftymbm Chieftain

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    Eh. I haven't had any problems convincing civs with my ideology to vote for me.....
     
  19. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    One way is to just bring back the United Nations, and bring back the old system, just because we have World Congress doesn't mean we have to have that absorb into the U.N.
     
  20. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS King

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    I've always thought that CSs should vote for the civ that had the most total number of turns allied with them. This way I can't just buyout a CS that had been allied with someone else for practically the entire game and win.

    You could add other factors in there such as: declared war on the CS directly, took tribute, # of completed quests, turns as a friend, social policies adopted (+vote% for having honor social policies from militaristic CSs, for example).

    The players shouldn't have control over the CS delegates during a world leader vote, it makes the diplo victory way too easy and predictable. Any system where players don't have control would be a lot more exciting because the player would have a good idea of who the CSs will work for, but can't be certain for every single last CS.

    Oh, and to make things fair, the CSs only keep track of who they're allied with for the purpose of a world leader vote once the WC starts. This way, if one continent has 4 CSs, and the other has 12, the players on the 4 CS continent don't get screwed.
     

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