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Diplomatic Victory needs to be looked at

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Piobmhor, Aug 6, 2013.

  1. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    I know this is something weird... but what happens to liberated city states in BNW? do you retain their votes regardless of status?

    Also, that is not a bad idea, but there needs to be an always seen UI so you know what to expect...
     
  2. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    I'd rather they didn't bring back the Gods and Kings system of voting; I do like the IDEA of the new diplo victory because it is much more active.

    I think the trick lies in making the resolutions that give delegates stronger, and perhaps adding a few more. These do require you to interact with the other major civs and convince them to aid you in uniting the world under one rule.
     
  3. OmniPotent42

    OmniPotent42 King

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    The current system is fine, IMO but with a few tweaks could be a more satisfying victory condition.

    No offense, but a lot of the proposals aren't very intuitive and clog up a system that is already okay. Changing votes so there are complex formulas and ideology consideration is expansion-level introductions.

    I think a good way to make it less about :c5gold: is to make city-state quests scale per era - like have them give 60 influence in ancient like they do now, but have them give 65 in classical, 70 in medieval, 75 in renaissance all the way up to I think 95 in information era.

    That way you can actively seek out city-state quests and make it less about money and provide ways for other civs to counter your influence along with the help of spies.

    This is the simplest solution proposed that allows you to retain your base votes and yet still have a competitive, multidimensional system. Make the single player AI actually fight for votes and voila! You have a fun, satisfying victory condition.
     
  4. Melendor

    Melendor Warlord

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  5. Drewbdu

    Drewbdu Chieftain

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    I meant that it was possible, not likely :lol:
     
  6. Drewbdu

    Drewbdu Chieftain

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    Yes, this would help to actually make the Diplo VC challenging. It would be beneficial if they fought for city-states more aggressively, also.
     
  7. feketebirka

    feketebirka Chieftain

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    I think diplo victory can be easy and hard. many cs -> easy, few cs -> hard. This new system implies a very aggressive playstyle. I always go to war near the end, so ais dont buy cs's off me.

    my proposal (bit mixed):

    - at world leader proposal everyone should vote one civ, excluding itself
    - all civ should be able to abstain
    - votes should be summed as core delegates (without cs and wonders etc) voting the chosen civ.
    - you should get 2/3rds of the total votes (including abstains) to win.

    Abstain should help when there are a few civs left.
     
  8. Alzadar

    Alzadar Warlord

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    They could make it so CS don't automatically have a vote. If you want CS to matter the major civs have to pass a proposal making it so. This way diplomatic vic actually requires diplomacy with the other civilizations. It's a bit silly that I can become world leader with 3 + 16 CS votes beating 2*7 all other civs votes.
     
  9. thejayq

    thejayq Chieftain

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    I think here lies the crux. If your opponents do not have this tenet you will cruise for a diplomatic victory. I think opponents do not have this tenet (or do not have it long enough), because diplomatic victory comes too early.

    I think an easy fix for this is having to have a two thirds majority in terms of delegates (or at least a 50% majority) voting for you. This way AI's have more time to boost their relations with CS when they have adopted the Freedom or Autocracy ideology.

    This ultimately leads you to not be able to buy your votes on a large scale, which you usually can still do in BNW, but actually in all the civ 5 versions.
     
  10. Council 13

    Council 13 Chieftain

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    I could have sworn that I noticed that in BNW, if you bribe a CS over 1 turn before the vote, they do not count towards your delegates. I'll have to verify this again but I'm pretty sure thats the case now.
     
  11. Council 13

    Council 13 Chieftain

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    I think in some games, Diplo does come a little easy. But its only happened a handful of times for me on Emperor level. I think the biggest issue they need to fix is AI hording money. Nearly every game there is at least 1 AI that has well over 10k in gold and never uses it, even if you or another AI is threatening a Diplo victory.
     
  12. simonthesinner

    simonthesinner Chieftain

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    could a world-religion having, secret palace owning host Austria that has gobbed up all city states win the leader vote with only ther own votes?
     
  13. sendos

    sendos Immortal

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    I like this idea as a means of making diplomatic victories harder.

    My suggestion would be to increase required number of votes by 25% (to factor in various requirements depending on map sizes). Trying to get 50 votes would be quite difficult.
     
  14. blackcatatonic

    blackcatatonic Queen of Meme

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    Regardless of whether or not Diplomatic Victory is too easy, I don't think it should be triggered so passively. World Leader should be a resolution that can be proposed after the Atomic Era. Frankly, it's irritating that you have to take measures to avoid it happening while trying to win a Science victory or whatever - you can't enter the Information Era without triggering the process, even if no-one else is in Atomic yet.

    Also - correct me if I'm wrong, but it is currently not possible to horse-trade for the "new host" votes that come up occasionally, right? It really should be. When your game includes someone like Alexander, the only way to stop him from grabbing permanent control of the Congress is to buy or steal all his CS allies. Considering that the host gets bonus delegates, it should be possible to strike some kind of a deal with the AI so that they all vote for you (or indeed for the player with the next biggest amount of delegates) instead of letting them all blindly vote for themselves when they have no hope of winning.
     
  15. MrCynical

    MrCynical Deity

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    The current Diplomatic victory is rather unsatisfying. It's the fact that no matter how aggressively you (and everyone else) plays, you basically have to be actively trying not to trigger it before you hit Space or quite often Culture. A recent game I played started off with 10 civs, and we were down to 2 by the atomic age. I'd basically taken over my continent while Washington had done the same on the other. I ended up winning by diplomatic, as it essentially reached the point where there was no way for one of us not to win the vote.

    In that situation it shouldn't even have been possible for either of us to win diplomatically. With only two significant powers one shouldn't be able to simply declare victory at the UN. What I would do is add a requirement for the support of a certain number of civs to get victory. Say you were on an 8 major/16 CS map you'd have to get support from say a minimum of 8 civs (with CSs counting as half a civ). The catch would be that this requirement wouldn't change as civs and CSs are conquered. This would mean that you'd have to genuinely be on good terms with the majority of powers in the game. If the game's been a bloodbath and there's only you and one or two rivals left, you can't win diplomatically. Would also mean that aggressively conquering civs who won't vote for you wouldn't actually help win diplomatically.
     
  16. InvisibleStalke

    InvisibleStalke Emperor

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    The only thing it needs is the AI to realise that losing is a possibility and fight you for it. If you have enough city state votes plus enough gold remaining to buy enough city states for the win then they should use their horded gold to block you.
     
  17. Green_Power

    Green_Power Chieftain

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    Or you could just reduce the number of CS in the game. I always go with default-2.

    I'm not disagreeing with having more complexity in the World Congress. But, remember that this is a brand new feature in Civ5, so, they must get the basics in first to then expand on them on a next expansion or iteration. Too much at the same time could be dangerous.

    My recommendation if you find diplomatic victory easy is to reduce the CS number. As I see it, it's only easy for the human player, so, don't do it, otherwise it's an exploit. My second recommendation is: try a harder difficulty level and put some city-state lovers Civs in the game.
     
  18. ButSam

    ButSam King

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    I think a simple solution to the problem is twofold:

    (1) Make it so diplo votes for victory start at least 1 era later (or perhaps with researching a tech at/near the end of the tree and building the UN, it converts from WC to UN and now has alternating votes for world leader?)

    (2) Make it so the AI, regardless of desired VC, is willing to spend gold on your "easiest-to-convert" city state to prevent you from winning. You can see how many delegates the AI has prior to the vote and how much influence you need to become an ally to any city-state...they should be able to semi-intelligently process how to spend gold to prevent you from winning.

    Either of those by itself I think would help a lot, and the first is very easy to implement...both of them would make it roughly balance other VCs.
     
  19. Resipsa

    Resipsa King

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    The only thing I'd change is to have the United Nations activate upon completion by a civilization of globalization it would slow things down enough to have other victories kick in.

    Won a Deity Diplomacy game last night with Venice but I was going for a Science Victory.
     
  20. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    100 % support to everything that NukeAJS says from me. That mechanism would be both challenging and balanced!

    The current system is not "fine", it is extremely easy to abuse, and what's worse, it doesn't even make sense. Would a city-state really think: "Hey, this dude A, he's been super good to us for two thousand years, he's been supporting all our quests, he's given us loads of money, but this dude B, he just gave us 1500 Gold yesterday, so let's vote him for World Leader!" No, I don't think so.

    What AJS is suggestion is really very simple: Every time you do something to gain +:c5influence: or -:c5influence: (once WV is founded) the game adds the number to your total score. The civ who has the largest number at the end of the game is the civ that the City State will vote for. This is very intuitive, it's easy to keep track of, and it still gives you the possibility to buy out a City State (but it will just take a lot more money if someone else has been allied with them entire game).

    When that's said, we also could come a long way with a sanity check that makes AI fight harder for influence with City States if you are about to win an upcoming WL vote, but I think the other change would go a longer way to make DV actually interesting over the course of the game.
     

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