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Diplomatic Victory too easy.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Sirre, Jul 17, 2013.

  1. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    I disagree. If I've seen the last of a CS coup ever, it will be one of the best things to happen to the game!

    I do think, however, that AI interaction with City States need to change. I definitely feel that AI should pay more attention to player closing in on diplomatic victory, and if necessary throw some money into either buying out the city state or alternatively, conquer it to absorb votes.

    I also wouldn't mind some more interaction between espionage and city states, but please give us something that's not so much of a pain in the *** as coups are. Suggestions could be:
    - Use diplomats with city states to increase their opinion of you (Hostile -> Neutral -> Friendly).
    - Use spies to decrease their opinion of others (Friendly -> Neutral -> Hostile).
    - Use diplomatics to make propaganda, increasing the value of gifts you give to city state or even to give you a relationship boost.
    - Use spies to make propaganda, decreasing the relationship between the city state and another civilization.
    - Possibly a more refined option for election rather than the current deadpan 15-turn cycle.
    These things should be activated ability with diplomatic consequences if failing!


    As for the original topic, I'm not sure I agree DV is exactly "easy", but it's certainly boring. Buy all city-states, enter atomic era or whenever the vote starts, win. The vote starts way too early, btw. Can anyone ever win a Science victory when space ship parts lie in information era and voting for World Leader starts already in atomic? The sad irony is that often you will win a DV even though all major civs hate you. How diplomatic is that? :rolleyes:
     
  2. DuseCutter

    DuseCutter Chieftain

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    Or that you CAN'T win it when every Civ in the game loves you but only votes for themselves. The fact that the only way you can win a DV is by buying off city states is the biggest problem I see. Why does every Civ always vote for themselves? Does this fall under "they are all trying to win" parameter?

    I can see a Civ with 11 delegates only voting for you with 3 delegates. It may not be enough to get victory, but if each one does then you should get the win. It's a reward for juggling all those relationships. But, of course, the way it's designed you can't vote for more than one Civ so they vote for themselves and don't split. It's a poorly designed victory condition that could be greatly improved with minor tweaking.
     
  3. Dai

    Dai Warlord

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    I haven't really thought through the implications of this, so bear with me, but what if city-states developed ideologies at some point, and - more importantly - split themselves reasonably evenly between them? Civs that share an ideology with a city-state benefit from reduced decay, improved recovery, and larger influence bonuses from gold and quests. Civs that don't share an ideology with a city-state suffer from greatly increased decay, penalized recovery, and smaller bonuses from gold and quests. This should "spread the wealth" a bit in terms of who's in good with the city states, and make it harder for any one civ to be BFFs forever with every single one of them. It might be possible to pressure a city-state into flipping its ideology to yours if you're able to exert lots of influence on it over an extended period of time in spite of the penalties. That way there'd at least be a sub-game of trying to flip city states to your ideology, instead of just dropping a mountain of gold on all of them at the last minute.
     
  4. MadHaxxor

    MadHaxxor Warlord

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    I agree, the ai just doesn't understand how to win. I think it would be more interesting if it was more like it was in gnk. Each civ gets 1 delegate, you can't vote for yourself. All allied city states will vote for their ally, city states get 1/2 a delegate.
     
  5. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    On immortal, it wasn't easy, at least for me. Just finished a 40 hour game in which nearly everything happened.

    I had a good hold on most of the city-states but I had to sit back and watch most of them get conquered. I pushed through my ideology without much effort fairly early but still didn't have the votes and easily failed the first time. I knew there would be one maybe two more votes left before I lose to space. I barely managed to get the last city-state to give me all 8 (8 had been captured).

    I proposed my world religion despite it being the 2nd smallest and had to give up a lot to secure the votes. That was actually quite hard but fun. But I would still fall short so I had to also ramp up science with labs and specialists so I could get Globalization before the vote. There were no chance to get other civs to vote for me but I managed to get the vote on my own to win, barely, in my first attempt.

    All of this on top of investing a lot into culture and tourism to hold off Ethiopia, and staying alive during all of the many late game wars.

    And having a tiny 4 city civ that was dead last nearly all game in demographics except for techs.
     
  6. Sheershaw

    Sheershaw Chieftain

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    This is something you see when voting for the next host of the congress as well. All AI's will vote for themselves, even if they have no chance of winning.

    I'd much prefer to see the AI calculate their chances of winning the host vote. If they are a little off, it might be time to buy a vote and ally a city state. If they are really off, I would like to see them vote for the person most likely to put forward proposals that they enjoy.
     
  7. kwidem

    kwidem Warlord

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    this!!!!!!
     
  8. Gamgee

    Gamgee Chieftain

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    I agree it's so easy and more so as Venice I am just torturing my friend voting him banned from everything. Soon to be life.
     
  9. rferrao

    rferrao Chieftain

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    Perfectly put! I had a similar experience except I was playing Emperor, in a archipelago scenario. My demographics sucked and all I had to do was basically stay alive. I got to pass world ideology with the help of my friends (Iroquoi) but that was really the only fullfilling part of the game. From that point, I bought/couped all the city states needed easilly. My opponents where sitting on huge amounts of cash, for instance Greece had like 30 thousands of it. And that was Greece!! Alexander didn't even bother staying in the way... I believe they should get this patched/modified soon because it is really frustrating!
     
  10. 95soram

    95soram Chieftain

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    I agree, right now many of ai civs don't actively prevent you from buying up all the city state votes. I have won several games where a couple of the ai civ's had enough money to buy some city states out from under me but didn't. I am tempted to turn off the diplomatic victotry condition, but I don't want to hurt the civs that are designed to go for that type of victory.
     
  11. teqofc

    teqofc Warlord

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    It's easy on Immortal if you play Venice. I won a diplomatic victory on turn 251 (quick game pace) with 30 votes, 2 more than needed. I did that without religion and without a forbidden palace and only 2 World Wonders. I had a high unit maintenance cost for quite a while to fend off Napolean in the early game but once he was sent scurrying away and my trade routes stabalized I had all the money to burn on keeping CS allied. I also sent every spy I could to a CS not near me to keep them under my control with election rigging. I had +464gpt at the end and it would have been more if I had scaled down my military but I kept a good size force around for "just in case" :)

    I kept open borders with India, Egypt and Siam. We were all good buddies and all had Order Ideology I had very prosperous trade routes with them. The only thorn in my side was the Shoesone. They were the hosts in the early game and had 8k gold but their warmongering with Indonesia and France and being the only Autocratic ideology got them into trouble with public opinion and eventually denounced by all my buddies. After pumping more and more money into CS I finally overcame him with enough votes to be host and enacted an embargo on him and it was all cruising after that becoming allies with 10 CS and Order being the official ideology. I didn't generate much culture but enough so I had the entire patronage tree filled out.

    And I still had four MoV ready to pop for extra money at the end if needed :)
     
  12. Arksa

    Arksa Warlord

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    I think the Lead Designer said something the AI competing for the CSS so you don't get diplo win easy, but in my first win on BNW I won diplo win with my nemesis France having 30 000 gold and did not even try to stop me...

    so yeah because of that alone Diplo win is kind of silly.
     
  13. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    That has been my biggest complaint about civ5 - the AI opponents not being aggressive enough to win. In vanilla, I've opponents sit on ten of thousands of gold and now the same thing in BNW. As I mentioned in my game, I won when finally got all 8 city-states so why didnt some of the opponents try and stop me? They did ok in not wanting to vote for me - why would any player let an opponent win?!? But apparently there's a majority that want passive AI and that's what we got. On immortal, I should not be so incredibly weak demographically and win.

    But I do have to add that I've been playing civ for 17 years and this was the most fun I had in a standard game. The new mechanics and features were awesome.
     
  14. john129pats

    john129pats Chieftain

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    I think it's because of how easy it is to get money now. In most games I will get up to at least 100 GPT during the Renaissance era. As long as you just save save save save save, you'll end up with enough gold to keep buying city state influence over and over again. In all of my diplomatic victories, I usually win them way before civs start building the Apollo Program. I think to balance it, they should stop giving you TWO diplomats for things like the Forbidden Palace, World Religion and World Ideology.
     
  15. Inhalaattori

    Inhalaattori Emperor

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    Well I played Indonesia on Emperor and won Diplo victory extremely easy. Netherlands had 35000 gold, but he just decided not to use his money on anything. I got enough money from trade routes and golden ages to pay all city states and AI Civs didnt seem to care. I know I played only on Emperor, but the thing is that all other victories are much harder to achieve on Emperor. Diplo victory is piece of cake even when you dont go patronage or commerce. In my Indonesia game I went for domination and culture, but when the diplo victory was there - I just took it.
     
  16. Paradigne

    Paradigne Emperor

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    I've dumped 3k into one city state and STILL did not get ally. I guess it depends on who your opponents are.
     
  17. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    So far, winning in BNW takes longer than it did on G&K. This may change, but not by a lot, or we'd have seen the signs already.

    I mentioned this elsewhere - the AI isn't nearly focused enough on any VC except for domination (the only one that's impossible). Half the problem would be solved if the devs just dialed up focus, at least on the higher levels. I have no idea what holds them back - they are not going to alienate the mainstream audience by making Immortal and Deity much harder (and without gimmicks).

    But this would then make the other problem - too much late-game gold - a gamebreaker. The AI would win every DV, and it would be a race to stop them from doing this. That's an improvement, but a better solution would be to dial down late-game gold - and to program the AI to spend what they have above a threshold number, as Thal's mod does.

    The G&K approach to a DV is better than the BNW one, but it's mainly because of the amount of gold available to the human player. (We haven't even mentioned borrowing from those rich allies.) I think a more focused AI, with less gold available in general, would solve all but one of the VC issues that BNW has.

    The only one it doesn't solve is that a CV is harder to achieve than all the other VC, because it's much easier to defend against. The AI's overall preference for it makes winning the game even easier for the human player. Even if a DV were more competitive - which would be very easy to accomplish - a SV is always going to be easier. I wouldn't make a CV easier, since I think it's one of the all-time Civ series accomplishments. But I would make the SV tougher for everyone, if only by adding more techs. (There are probably other ways to do this, but that's the obvious one.)

    Doing some version of all of this could result in a more balanced and more competitive game.
     
  18. 7Horse

    7Horse Chieftain

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    Has anybody gone for a cultural victory? I found that, because you really need to play the WC game to get tourism boosting stuff (International Games, etc.), you end up in position that you will have enough delegates to win the victory whether you want it or not.
    BTW, I was playing Brazil
     
  19. DeutschDachs

    DeutschDachs King

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    About to win a dv as mmorocco. Was competing heavily with indonesia but they seem to have given up... They're sitting on over 25k of gold! Not going to use it to try to stop me, weird
     
  20. Simplicity2

    Simplicity2 Chieftain

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    From what I've seen so far, I also kind of agree. The major problem in my opinion is that the most powerful Patronage ability (+20 resting influence) is way at the beginning of the Patronage tree. Combine that with Pledges to Protect and/or that religious ability and you have City States easily locked up almost without spending any gold at all.

    Pledges to Protect are also too powerful.

    Finally, I have always found the coup mechanic completely annoying. Why can't I send a diplomat to a city state to increase influence there over time? Isn't that exactly the sort of thing a diplomat should be able to do?
     

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