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Disappointed with Cyrus's agenda?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by MantaRevan, Mar 28, 2017.

  1. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    None of the historical agendas bug me that much. I play the way I play and some civs will routinely hate me. No big deal.

    The thing that really bugs me is when half the AI civs get the Ideologist agenda. That always seems to lead to war.
     
    4N4C0ND4 and Siptah like this.
  2. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    I agree that the agendas are in need of some balance.

    They should have a second secret agenda that's more practical.

    "I'm afraid of you because you have a strategic resource I dont."

    "I want you to like me because you have a luxury resource that I don't and I want to trade."

    "You're unenlightened and I want my people to come share my religious/ideological wisdom with you."

    It would even better if these could pop up on an as-needed basis, whenever it made sense in-game.
     
  3. Felis Renidens

    Felis Renidens Prince

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    I think the default (if I don't make special efforts and not a warmonger) is 2-3 friends, 2-3 hates, 2-3 neutral, which balances on neutral. Can be tilted by favorable deals (throw in 100 extra gold occationally - a good advice that I got here), sending trade routes, not forgetting to send delegations. such things. That's usually where I stop because I don't care about their politics and won't denounce unless I want to make a formal war (and even then I will prefer a joint war).
     
    Siptah likes this.
  4. Kyro

    Kyro Prince

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    That is true but it's very difficult to offset stuff like -12 from different governments.

    If Agendas are not there to help you control diplomacy, why do they exist at all?
     
  5. isau

    isau Deity

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    I think the diplomacy values are just a little too unforgiving. This ends up hurting the AI and actually making the game easier, because the AIs are constantly furious with each other. To change it up, I did this in my Combined Tweaks mod, and it seems to mostly keep the AIs stable but still capable of going hostile:


    - Increased the timer on a number of agendas to not trigger until 30 turns after meeting player (versus 10)
    - For remaining agendas, increased the timer to 15 turns (from 10)
    - Removed all anger for different government types until the final 3 governments, with the exception of Ideologues. You still get bonuses for having same government, just not penalties.
    - Pruned back Explorer to +2 and -2 (from +6 -6)
    - Lowered Ideologue hate to -2 (from -6). High end is still +6, so this is an opportunity to make a friend.
    - Lowered the negative side of Pedro, Saladin, Mvemba, Pericles, and (as of recently) Cyrus so there are some AIs who naturally trend positive
    - Lower hatred for ignoring a promise (because the system is so wonky)


    My goal-state was to make it so it is basically possible to retain 2 friends in an 8 player game, and for the AIs to do the same with each other. These changes seem to work reasonably well for that.
     
    altayrneto, 4N4C0ND4 and Victoria like this.
  6. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Now if we could only get these changes implemented officially. :)
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    This is a perfect example.... I typically only care about one civ and if that civ has a different government amd my need is high, I will change government. Hell after a few turn and getting all those other positive modifiers you can swap back. Of course the issue is on high level you may not have that gov... Maybe you could have planned a different path to get it?... Probably not but the option is there.

    I have been next to Germany and not contested for CS, yes. I just sent my scouty types overseas and found ones Germany is not interested in. It is a painful one as CS are very useful. You have to make a call. i'm still trying to get a better grasp on it and trying things like this out

    I agree it is on the hard side but we do not want everyone luvvy duvvy either.

    Often I decide nah, I need that... Then you have to make sure you are ready for an attack and use it to your favour.

    Diplomacy is a little balanced toward the hate side still, it could do with a bit more ease especially when civs are now DOW all the time for more space.
     
  8. gettingfat

    gettingfat Emperor

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    I once played an immortal game in a continent map with Trajan, Cleo, Peter on my continent and Mvemba and Victoria on another continent. So Trajan hated me because I only got one city and he got many to start because the game allowed him to cheat, Cleo similarly hated me because I didn't have as many military units (and later hated me for building too many units as she was paranoid), Peter hated me because my science was behind him.....then later Mvemba hated me because I still had not researched cartography to send missionary to convert his cities, and Victoria hated me for not sending a settler to her continent when I didn't have that ability yet.

    This is a classic example showing that the current agenda crxp design further pushes the human players to resort to war at higher difficulty levels. Some agendas are quite unlikely to satisfy at least for the first one-third of the game. Beating them up is often the most convenient way to shut them up.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
    Kyro likes this.
  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    @isau do you have lots of info on diplomacy? It would be nice to have all the current stats in a reference.
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    ... or you can use diplomacy to get someone beaten up
     
  11. isau

    isau Deity

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    I could run a report that pulls up all the default values. Something like that?
     
    agonistes likes this.
  12. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Hopefully with the AI now being better able to defend itself, the agendas will actually matter somewhat more in diplomacy (though IMO they still not worth the effort of appeasing the AI--usually it's just easier to roll over them to victory).
     
  13. isau

    isau Deity

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    @Victoria attached is a PDF and an Excel file with values as of the current patch. It's a little messy so I provided the Excel file in case someone wants to make a nicer looking fact sheet out of it.

    I excluded a couple of variables here and there (e.g. variables that were just text strings for text to display on screen, and the variable that makes an agenda Hidden).
     

    Attached Files:

  14. MantaRevan

    MantaRevan Emperor

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    The problem is that the reward for cooperating with an agenda and potentially earning an ally/trading partner is often not worth the investment of fulfilling it.

    The Cyrus example I gave, for instance. I'm not going to accumulate war weariness, potentially kill my trade routes, and piss off every other leader in the game just to court Cyrus's favor. If I'm going for the religion wincon then I'm not going to switch off theocracy to monarchy or merchant republic to please another leader. Faith is the essential currency of that victory and the benefits of alternative governments aren't fungible enough to help with the faith game.

    Agendas are a cool feature overall, but they seem to shoehorn leaders into fairly 2D personalities which are, as others have said, fairly black and white. I'd love to see the features moderated a little bit more and maybe take a look at some static leader flavors to give them some depth outside of the agendas. Does Mvemba declare war more often than Curtain or Victoria, all things considered? I'd like to know the answers. Spreadsheets full of leader flavors are boring to a lot of people, but I enjoy taking a look into Gajah Mada or Theodora's brains.
     
    Morningcalm likes this.
  15. OnceAKing

    OnceAKing Warlord

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    They've stated that some things were done to encourage conflict and engage the characters within the other players.

    The clear play here is that Persia will be at odds with Scythia. So if she wages war against someone who did a surprise war. He may surprise war her. And of course, if he surprise DOWs another AI Scythia is coming for him.

    Another juxtaposition is England and America and their strengths.
     
  16. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond Prince

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    Agendas are just a reason to hate you even more. There's no benefit trying to please them. You will lose too much trying to do so unless they match your own playstyle.

    Just don't care about them.
     
  17. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    It was supposed to make diplomacy more nuanced and complex. Instead it just made war more commonplace.
     
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  18. isau

    isau Deity

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    I just think it needs some tweaks to the values and it will be there. Wish they'd back off on every leader having such an extreme downside to their agenda. It's not really historical and makes the AI play worse. They are much more formidible when they occasionally form friendships.

    I also added to my mod the idea of "Friendship Gifts." Each leader gives you something unique. E.g. Ghandi lets your builders build Stepwells, Egypt gives you an extra trade route, and so on. What was amazing to me is the code for supporting this is pretty much already there in the database structure, based on what Firaxis already coded for City States. So it wouldn't even take them a lot of time to code if they wanted to add it in (heck, steal it from me, LOL).
     
  19. 4N4C0ND4

    4N4C0ND4 King

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    Sharing map vision as allies is a step in this direction at least :)
     
  20. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    No, it isn't impractical. Religion bonuses aren't worth the investment unless you're specifically trying to win that way. Otherwise, going for a religion is -generally- a waste of your time on higher difficulties. I virtually never bother with them. Surprise wars? You don't need them. Denouncing an A.I. civ doesn't magically make them produce an army and put it on their border waiting for you. The only draw is that you just need to plan 5 turns ahead. Suzerain bonuses aren't necessary either, you can win Deity games without using a single envoy. Personally, I conquer most City states since their very existence in a game is more beneficial all of the opponents than it is for me, whether I'm suzerain or not.

    I mean really, there's nothing absurd about giving up religion if you're not going to play religious. There's nothing absurd about not declaring surprise wars if you aren't gunning for conquest. There's really nothing absurd about most of the agendas.

    Having said all that, you missed the point - It's a trade off you make if you want to be friends with that civ. You don't need to be friends with any civ to win the game - regardless of the victory you're playing. So it's really a moot point. Of all the opponents in the game it's very easy to find one agenda you can satisfy if you're looking to make an ally.

    It shouldn't be easy to reach friendly status with all of your opponents.
     

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