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Discovered how the map generates horses

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Batvanio, Nov 22, 2005.

  1. Batvanio

    Batvanio Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
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    while searching an alternative of the easy Inca rush
    I suspected some of the civs with chariot specialst
    could be better, that is why I tried to generate on deity a map
    with horses in the first city borders of Kublai Khan for example.

    The experiment included over 50 map starts and several hours -
    boring but still there were some results:

    1. In all the generations there were not a horse resource in city borders.
    2. In all generations there was no horse resource in the first city borders of other civs too.
    3. when there is a lot of land and few civs - there are more horse resources, when there is less land and many civs - there are few horse resources and even in some cases NO horse resources at all.
    4. When you have duel, tiny and small map with 18 civs the chance is 99% that the map will NOT have horse resources.
    5 - When you have 18 civs on a standard map there is 1-4 horse resources but nowehere near any of the first cities.

    Experimenting with all this conludes horse civs dont have chance on deity. Horse spawn on higher level is striclty linked with number of civs and also a rule not to be in or close to any first city borders - denying advantage to any civ.
     
  2. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

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    Bonn, Germany
    Hi,

    I strongly doubt the map generation script works differently for other levels of difficulty. Given this assumption, view my game report linked to in my sig about my cultural victory for a counter-example of your theory: On page two, you can see Mecca started with horses in its initial 21 tiles. I have seen horse starts in other games as well.

    That's a LOT of different theories you're basing on only 50 maps. Statistically, this is not significant.

    -Kylearan
     
  3. Romanichine

    Romanichine Samurai

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    Sorry to dissapoint but I had at least a game with Horses next to my starting tile. I recall only one game and I just double-checked to be sure. Moscow had horses in its fat cross.

    Unless you meant no horse in the 9-tiles area around the city?
     
  4. Astax

    Astax Prince

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    Oct 27, 2005
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    Actually his experiment does shed some light on some things. Because there is no horse spawn within starting city boarders, when you have lot of civs, the area encompassing the initial city boarders is much bigger. So on a small map that can equal to a signifficant portion of the land tiles. Now I predict that the area where the horses wont spawn is slightly bigger than the starting fat cross, once agian multiply by 18, you got a very significant portion of the map where the horses wont spawn. Question would be are the special resource tiles rolled first, and then there's a roll to determine what kind of resource it would be. Or if each inidividual resource is rolled seperately. In either case if a resource tile falls into the no horse zone, then inc ase numebr one where the resource tiles are rolled first with no specific resource, horses are excluded from the following roll to determine what kind of resource it will be. Or if the ladder is true, I believe if the horse resource is rolled into a no horse area around starting location, then the resource would be converted to something else like cows maybe.

    Still I none of it could be true, unless we are 100% sure that no horses will roll near the starting location.
     
  5. RoddyVR

    RoddyVR Veteran Board NESer

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    Russian in US
    i've had horses within the fat cross of my starting location.
    i'll find the save file from that game when i get home.

    EDIT: oh, didnt realize he was talking about diety diff only. nevermind.
    ps, are there realy people already playing on diety????? yeeesh you guys are fast.
     
  6. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Yep, me too.
     
  7. Gufnork

    Gufnork Prince

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    I think he's saying that there is no possibility for there to be a Horse resource within city borders in Deity games. Not in lower difficulties. Which may very well be correct, since there is a parameter in the CIV4HandicapInfo.xml that's called iStartingLocPercent, which varies between 10 (Settler) to 90 (Deity). Exactly what it means, I don't know. It could mean that you start in the top 10% spots based on some calculation on Settler and top 90% on Deity, making it not impossible, but very unlikely to start next to Horses on Deity compared to other difficulties (since it probably ranks very high in the calculation). It might also mean something else making it impossible to start with horses.
     
  8. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

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    Hi,

    Let the player start on a crappy location on higher difficulties? :eek: That would be a mean way to sneak in even more challenge... :crazyeye:

    I'm curious to see what this XML entry does; hopefully somebody will find out soon. (I'm too busy playing! :lol: )

    -Kylearan
     
  9. Batvanio

    Batvanio Chieftain

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    exactly I quoted only deity, though I did some tests today and I can say its valid on monarch with 18 civs and small map with huge sea,
    Try yourself and you will see if you spawn a resource in city borders, or any other civ has it in its borthers pls send me the save file.

    I am sure you will hapend to have a map totally without horses all the time though. Either that or my game generator is broken :)
     
  10. Steenreem

    Steenreem Chieftain

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    Nov 11, 2005
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    Is there really no way to see the map generation code? You can change the generator in mods right? The regular generator is problably made in the same way you would make a modded generator.
     
  11. Wlauzon

    Wlauzon Prince

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    The flaw in your reasoning is that horses DO spawn within city borders.

    I have seen it several times. Not common, like iron or copper, but it happens.
     
  12. Astax

    Astax Prince

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    Read beyond the first sentance, thank you.
     
  13. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    It's true. Or at least, more likely to start in a crappy location. It's not clear yet exactly what the XML entry does, but the map generator writer has indicated that it is indeed likely to start in a worse position on higher difficulty levels.

    Of course, it also poses some different challenges -- just mod that number and give yourself a really good start on immortal for a first game, to get the feel of the speed of the AI at that level. Or give yourself a (potentially) very bad start on Noble, to get a bit more challenge or.... Fun parameter to have, although knowing how it works would be nice, too.

    Arathorn
     
  14. Batvanio

    Batvanio Chieftain

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    just to clarify horses do start in city borders on noble and lower dificulties.
    for those that still misread me :)
    For Prince I was not able to conclude,
    Need a lot of experimets there as the chance might be ridiculously low.

    For Monarch I receive maps with no horses, manytimes in city radius I have both iron and copper , but no horses.

    So horses is the most sensitive "dificulty" resource.

    I cannot read the code as I am not definitely a programmer but I presume
    on deity the chances of copper and iron spawning are also reduced by a fraction.
     
  15. akots

    akots Poet

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    Don't know about the code but I have started 2 games on immortal level as Persia on tiny and small maps with default numbers of AI and had horses within 9-tile radius of the start in both games. These 9 tiles also had an ivory and a wheat in one game and iron and corn in the other.
     
  16. Batvanio

    Batvanio Chieftain

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    just tested with your settings and indeed the first time there was a resource in an ai first town, the second time there was a resource in my nine tile radius.
    So obvoiusly it was not the dificulty that is playing with the horses spawn.
    I presumed it is either Kublai Khan choice or number of civs.

    So I continued with further testing:

    With Persia on immortal but with 18 civs on small map there was not a horse resource on teh whole map

    With Persia on chieftain but with 18 civs on a small map there was not a horse resource on the whole map again.

    Could I have just found a bug or is it working as intended? Try it out
     
  17. syneris

    syneris Chieftain

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    After the patch, you'll have to research (horseback riding iirc) to have horses show on the map. This change might increase the number of horses available on all maps/difficulties. This makes me wonder, are hidden resources placed at map creation or are they randomly added when first discovered?
     
  18. Islandia

    Islandia King

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    I only do play now! instead of customizing my games and on deity standard size map I have gotten horses within my starting squares. Could this have something to do with the number of civs taking up all the available land forcing the map generator to do something quirky?
     
  19. al_thor

    al_thor Prince

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    @syneris -
    Are you just saying this, or do you have some basis for this statement? Is there a link somewhere that covers the intended changes in the fix?
     
  20. Astax

    Astax Prince

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    The correct tech will be animal husbadry. You will find a fiery thread by me on this forum concernign the patch.

    Yes resources are rolled with the map. I know this becasue I had IDENTICAL maps roll before, and I discovered iron working at different times in the game and it was in the same spot.
     

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