Discussion for new proposal: new medic as a civilian unit instead of combat unit with medic promotion

Rekk

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Similarly I don't want my archer who I made to do range dmg to do subpar in both medic support role and range dmg, because there's already a better unit who can do that for each separated role.
Are you saying that the recon line is the best medic line, but it can't do its job to heal the front line because you would rather that space be taken up by a ranged unit? And you don't want the ranged unit with medic in that space because you would rather that space be taken by a ranged unit with damage promotions?

Instead, you have a ranged unit with damage promotions in that space, but you're annoyed/frustrated that you have to retreat your units too frequently because they're taking too much damage and not healing enough. But since this is clearly the optimal strategy to take cities aside from the annoyance of having to retreat your units in order to get them to heal, you want to change how healing during an invasion works by adding a civilian unit that can stack with your ranged unit and heal everything without having to sacrifice any damage.

Do I understand correctly?
 
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ma_kuh

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We already tried that and it was changed to this version because it was too strong. I could see doing this in conjunction with removing it from the melee lines.
I'm guessing melee medics were given the defense malus because it made them too tanky: their main contribution to an engagement is sitting still, fully fortified. Is that correct? The fact that archer and skirmisher medics become easier to pick off is more of a byproduct of that decision, if so. Is it possible to change the malus to "while fortified" instead?
 

nekokon

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Are you saying that the recon line is the best medic line, but it can't do its job to heal the front line because you would rather that space be taken up by a ranged unit? And you don't want the ranged unit with medic in that space because you would rather that space be taken by a ranged unit with damage promotions?

Instead, you have a ranged unit with damage promotions in that space, but you're annoyed/frustrated that you have to retreat your frontline too frequently because they're taking too much damage and not healing enough. But since this is clearly the optimal strategy to take cities aside from the annoyance of having to retreat your units in order to get them to heal, you want to change how healing during an invasion works by adding a civilian unit that can stack with your ranged unit and heal everything without having to sacrifice any damage.

Do I understand correctly?
You're linking all of my suggestions without their contexts. The idea of adding medic as civilian unit was to reduce micromanagement, and I also want to reduce it to only medic 1 to not affect balance too much, just to focus on the main point of less units shuffling - QoL.
When it's no longer a viable option we're turned into how to make medic a fully optimized line which can compete with other lines on the same unit, in this case archer and melee line as ppl were talking mainly about those, as in if I were to have medic on my archer what should it be to be able to compete with other archer build paths.
You're missing the context where I said I prefer a logistic archer or siege unit over medic archer, when you're trying to take the city with 2 melee units and 1 archer (and if it's possible), it's much better to brute force with siege unit and those melee units rather than having 1 archer doing 10hp and 2 melee units sitting there healing up 15hp each turn. It's very easy to see which method actually helps taking the city faster (if it's possible to do so in the first place)
 

Rekk

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Your scenario where you have two melee and one ranged unit able to take out a city isn't one where you need a medic promotion. Okay? Don't make an Archer with a medic promotion for that situation.

if it's possible in the first place
This is where the invasion stumbles. If it's not possible to take the city with three units with damage promotions, then ... You need more units, and one of them might be best with a medic promotion or two.

I guess you are trying to say that you have an initial army of two melee and one ranged, and you don't want to give that ranged unit medic promotions when you start needing to heal.

... don't? Make another scout or Archer unit and give it medic promotions?
 
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nekokon

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Yes I would make another scout to do healing boost support if I need to, but not another archer to give it medic based on what I have explained. The point is still the same, those medic promotions on archer and melee line are just sitting there being inferior to other build paths, thus I want to change that (or just remove them from those lines, but I already said it's a lazy solution and I don't like that)
 

ma_kuh

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It sounds like the current promotions and units produce two general army compositions:

1. Every unit has a dedicated role: archers have pure damage promos, warriors have pure tank promos, scouts have healing promos. This setup takes up more map space, but is seen as optimal by some players.
2. Some units have mixed roles: every third archer might take medic, warriors generally don't take medic (and maybe that's a problem for warriors?). This setup is more compact and seen as optimal by some players.

That sounds like supporting two distinct playstyles, which I think is good for the game's design. I don't think I see a problem with promos that some people think are traps, but others think are key to success.

I'm not sure I agree that scouts are good medics though; they don't scale during combat, and they don't have access to medic very quickly, meaning fresh scouts aren't actually providing this service, only your initial super-scout(s) do, and they might be half a continent away when you need them, but that's maybe a different discussion.
 

pineappledan

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I'm not sure I agree that scouts are good medics though; they don't scale during combat, and they don't have access to medic very quickly, meaning fresh scouts aren't actually providing this service, only your initial super-scout(s) do, and they might be half a continent away when you need them, but that's maybe a different discussion.
I just find they don't have enough CS to even stay in the back line, that enemy ranged units can shoot over and take them out too easily. Archer line units are better-suited to this role because they defend against ranged attacks with their own RCS, and are therefore tankier than scout line unit as long as they are protected from melee strikes. Archer-Medics can also use their own ranged attack if they aren't being focused by the enemy, while a backline scout unit can only loiter there, because they can't attack from the backline.

The AI also is a lot better at targeting recon units. They will always focus down any recon units they can find as a first priority. If you're relying on your recon units to be medics they will get pounded.
 
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nekokon

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Based on how diverse the opinions in this thread are, I think likely there won't be enough vote for a change anyway. At least now we know ppl's opinions regarding the topic, and it saved a pointless poll so not all is lost.
Btw scout is good medic because of their big bonus while defending that mitigates the malus from medic, and they can scale beyond level 4 (which is the limit for medic archer) all the way up to 7 (worse start, better end)
 

nekokon

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Based on my experience, yes. They selfheal for a big chunk and have slightly better defense than medic archer if both have medic II and just sitting still. If archer does attack it loses fortification bonus. Scout also doesn't need to be surrounded with melee to prevent flanking like medic archer while also moving to where its needed faster.
 

Zanteogo

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Is a scout really a better medic than an archer? I think otherwise.

Being that I think most ranged units are a waste of time, (something I understand is not agreed to by everyone), I find scouts make alright healing units, if leveled up.

The promos that give them extra defense outside of friendly territory, and their ability to move quickly sort of works well as a healer.

Mind you, I don't usually have that many of them.

A side note, remember "back in the day" when we decided we were going to make the recon line good again? They had all sort of new promos added that made them good behind the lines harasser / pillager units. I guess that crown got put on the ranged mounted line? I was on a break when they were removed so don't recall the exact reasoning. All the more reason we need to nerf hammer the ranger mounted line...
 

balparmak

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I don't have the time to go through all the posts, but months ago I worked on this and had a working version, attaching it if anyone wants to take over. It works like this:
- Adds a new medic line of units: (iirc) Healer -> Physician -> Surgeon -> Field doctor-> Combat medic -> Mobile Field Hospital -> Medevac . Progression roughly follows that of the melee units tech and cost wise.
- Obviously, medic units get obsolete with technology, so you can't create a healer, call it a day and heal mechanized infantries and GDRs with it. I did this by creating "negation" promotions for each tier, so a healer gets a negation promotion with -10 healing when physician is unlocked, effectively removing its healing.
- This bit may be redundant, but I wanted the player to make investments to military infrastructure to recruit medic units. So, you need a barracks to recruit ancient medics, an armory for medieval, a military academy for the later. Under the hood this works by creating 3 new resources, ancient, medieval and modern military medicine, produced by military training (and possibly with hospital later on) building. This both forces the player to invest in military training, and implements a soft cap on medics to prevent the AI from going crazy with it. (It crowds the top panel, but I know how to fix that now)
- The hard part: Medics have a new unitai, UNITAI_MEDIC. This needs to be tied into the tactical AI and production AI dll functions to properly work. I made some progress with that, but my branch is horribly outdated (pre 2.0 iirc) and wasn't even complete. Naturally, the attached file doesn't include a custom dll, iirc the AI still builds medics but do not expect proper placement.
- I'll try to isolate my dll edits if anyone wants to take this further, but here's what I remember. Tactical AI has a check about where to place the units, as in frontline, second-line and third-line. You'll need to add medic UNITAI to that (second line). Then, basically go through all tactical AI entries about great generals and replicate that for medics. This is the saving grace and what makes a medic civilian/combat support unit feasible, it's usage is pretty much the same as a great general. (before anybody asks, no you can't just give medics the general AI, because that's hardcoded for some stuff) You can also look for the city special unitai, which is used for the siege tower UU, another civilian combat support unit. In any case, you'll need to get ilteroi's support for a polished implementation.

More than medics, my end goal was to create a framework for frontline and backline combat support units, which would allow modders to come up with their own unit lines or UUs. Like I really wanted to make anti-aircraft guns a defensive combat support unit, and I can see pdan's zeppelins working great as a frontline combat support unit too.

While I made some modifications, none of the art in this mod belongs to me and I didn't ask for permissions as nothing was released, keep that in mind. I'm not active these days so this is pretty much all the support I can provide.
 

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nekokon

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It's an overkill if the goal is just to balance the use of medic, but it's a very much needed base for the mod mod that implement supply unit earlier though.
A lot of idea/issue are already taken care of (like assets, the GG/siege tower AI underneath, cap for this specific unit type to prevent spamming, etc...)
Seriously if anyone have good knowledge about modding and interested in the idea can take over the supply unit mod mod would be done in no time (only leftover part is dll integration and some polish/theming)
 

ma_kuh

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Sep 13, 2022
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Something that came to mind while playing around with ideas for massive promotion overhauls (which stemmed from thinking about the role of skirmishers in combat... it's been a bit of a journey): there's already a civilian "medic" in the Mongol Khan. This unit is obviously a Great General, but that got me thinking: is there space for a "Lesser" General civilian unit? It would cost more than "just a medic", but it would also provide a weaker range-1 inspiration aura as well, giving it a very specific role. As always, art, models, etc. would be a limiter, but maybe it's an in-between solution?

Alternatively: just give Medic 1 to Great Generals.
 

BornDownUnder

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Feb 4, 2018
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... "medic units get obsolete with technology, so you can't create a healer, call it a day and heal mechanized infantries and GDRs with it. I did this by creating "negation" promotions for each tier, so a healer gets a negation promotion with -10 healing when physician is unlocked, effectively removing its healing.
- This bit may be redundant, but I wanted the player to make investments to military infrastructure to recruit medic units. So, you need a barracks to recruit ancient medics, an armory for medieval, a military academy for the later. Under the hood this works by creating 3 new resources, ancient, medieval and modern military medicine, produced by military training (and possibly with hospital later on) building. This both forces the player to invest in military training, and implements a soft cap on medics to prevent the AI from going crazy with it"...
Off topic: This imo is what is needed to be implemented more than anything else with the scout line, it is far too easy at present and has always been (Even in siege events) to just run around avoiding enemy ai and reposition to heal troops without upgrading the units.

I very much like your idea as a mod mod, though I feel one would have to introduce something along the lines of a singular Medic I promotion line, perhaps offering +5 hpt to combat units, otherwise can see it being quite powerful with just a few medic units running around. As well as severely reducing/removing the medic lines of the recon unit.

Completely off-topic again, the scout seems over-tuned for damage output imo, especially so against barbarians in early game and against previous era units.

On topic: Whilst not having any noteworthy input to the OP, I can see how one could want to change the way the medic line is utilized in-game as quite often I have felt it lackluster yet also over powered at times. The current implementation seems to work well for multiple playstyles, though I have noticed the AI has rarely used recons as full blown medics well (Have seen them running in trains of 3 to 5 across the map in the latest version of VP)

It also feels to me the implementation of the medic promotion to ranged is more for the player than for overall balance, as I personally have never seen the AI gain extra healing when they have fortified.
 
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