Discussion for new proposal: new medic as a civilian unit instead of combat unit with medic promotion

[Tekamthi]

I think this civilian medic idea is best attempted as a mod mod... I scanned about 80% of the thread and like some of the other suggestions, and there is something legit to the OP concern, but it doesn't feel like an adjustment to the main branch of vp to me. The proposal would be easily implemented specifically as a unit itself, but the AI would be the issue. Mod mod could at least provide a prototype for community to try out, get a feel for.

I am a broken record on this specific critique, but thematically I don't think it fits that well. I think it was not that common that there were organized units of unarmed civilians operating on the front line of international conflict to heal/repair personnel and equipment. This role was still a military role afaik, when directly in the theatre of combat. I am sure there are counterexamples to what I've said here, and I not well read enough on this subject that I couldn't be persuaded the other way maybe, but that's how it strikes me.

On the other hand it is not so gamey as some ideas that I'm really against it either, but ultimately I think the OP concern is in an okay state, and its imperfections could maybe be better handled another way.

I have no first hand knowledge but I assume that adjusting the AI for this will be a significant effort, and will result in human advantage, as AI still tends to blunder civilians here and there, as much as vp has improved this over time. Should avoid any solution that requires new AI, find a way to piggy back a fix via existing features as much as possible.

For example, maybe the medic promotion can be made available via a different process. Say a unit that has healed 500% of its full HP gets medic I automatically, and medic 2 after 1000%. Thematically we're assuming that a unit that has had to heal and repair itself many times gains proficiency at doing just that. Medic promotion would no longer compete directly for XP with other valuable promos. Some new code would be required to count how much each unit healed throughout their existence, but this should be relatively trivial, and otherwise no new AI or UI etc.

 

[nekokon]

To say there's no organized units of unarmed civilians operating on the frontline would be rather inaccurate, as it's only so during modern warfare. Historically civilians tagging along for logistic could easily double the amount of professional soldiers participating in the fight. However it is true that we can't really apply all real life logic here, and there're other methods to take care of the issue.

I'll edit the first post to better reflect on our current discussion.
Right now based on majority opinions having medic as a new unit might not be the best option, so the discussion is now switched to "how to take care of the issue with medic unit having subpar performance because they had to sacrifice important promotions for medic promotion ?"
Current solution including giving medic promotion for free for units of certain line (skirmisher ? siege unit ?), or for unit who accomplished certain task/action (heal up a certain amount) so that they can still get important promotions to do their main jobs.

 

[Tekamthi]

To say there's no organized units of unarmed civilians operating on the frontline would be rather inaccurate, as it's only so during modern warfare. Historically civilians tagging along for logistic could easily double the amount of professional soldiers participating in the fight.

Yeah you're probably right, though were these organized into a unit and commanded around by the apparatus of the state? or were they just the families and stragglers that decided independently to follow the fighters around? my impression is these were mostly the latter, and that such a situation is probably already represented in the abstraction of units and healing etc.

 

[nekokon]

They're mostly war slave/prisoner/state-owned workers/etc who would follow orders from the army logistic department and not out of voluntary...
Tagging along isn't quite the right word as they did their work along the supply line and not just staying behind the army all the time, but again it's hard to replicate that in game.

 

[Rekk]

The civilian unit doesn't necessarily need to be themed as healing. It can be considered a resupply , and use the same models as trade caravan / cargo ship.

Definitely think this large of a rework belongs in a modmod.

 

[Fluffball]

Without the defense malus, it might be "too good" though. For a defensive melee unit, being able to regenerate extra health is worth a fair amount of CS, regardless of its effects on other units.

I still don't really see the issue, people are talking that the fact you don't put medics on a melee unit is a really bad thing. I mean there are lots of promotions I prefer on one type over the other...ranged units are good medics, they don't lose a lot from the promotion (the defense is not as important, and ranged promotions are less impactful than melee ones), and the benefit to healing is very strong. Why does that need to change?

The additional healing means nothing though if to have the healing the unit is weaker to the effect they have to withdraw the next turn as taking medic often means.

Personally it is not the fact that i can't put medic on melee units that is the issue, it is more the fact that medic is a wasted and potentially unit weakening promotion to put on melee units so it is never used on melee units unless your too inexperienced a player to know better. From a gameplay enjoyment perspective it provides an illusion of choice where there is no real choice.

As for it being too strong, before the malice was added it was generally something i would only put on highly trained melee units after having taken the important defensive promotions to ensure they can survive enough to be able to take advantage of it and tbh at that point it was usually more of a convienience that helps to finish a warmonger game that was already won.

Considering higher level games are generally decided when your ranged units start to get +1 range (or if heavy forested indirect fire) and can therefore better dominate the battlefield with ranged units, having medic at least being potentially useful on melee units means you can at least have the choice of where to give the medic promotion. Do you want to get to the line breaking promotions on your ranged units quicker so you can move forward and thus put medic on at least some of your melee units without gimping them too much or are you happy to sit defensively while the enemy breaks itself against your heavy defenses so can control fields of fire and line of sight and thus medic can be better on ranged units while your melee units take damage reduction promotions

 

[Stalker0]

I think my principal objection here is the notion that medic is a "wasted promotion" and that archers that have it are somehow "worthless". This couldn't be further from the truth.

If you have an army where all your archers use standard combat promotions, and I have an army where 2 of my archers are using medic promotions....the medic army is going to win long term. That extra healing is ridiculously good over the course of a war. And frankly the loss of a few accuracy promotions isn't that big a deal, a medic 2 accuracy I archer's damage is still pretty reasonable compared to an accuracy 3 archer. Now I certainly would not make all of my archer's medics but the great thing is...I don't have to. I only need a couple.

So the argument that the current medic promotion is bad wrong fun I just can't agree with. Its a powerful and frankly vital element of warfare at the high levels.


Now if we want to talk melee units, I can respect that medic on melee units isn't a great idea. We could just remove the promotion on melee units to avoid the "newb trap", but I'm guessing most people would rather leave it for that 1 in a 1000 time they actually do want a medic on a melee unit. But to me that is not sufficient reason to change the fundamental promotion and the way healing works. Medic is a ranged unit promotion, that's the reality, and its a good promotion on that unit type. If its not working on other unit types....than remove it or ignore it, but that's not a rationale to say the promotion is bad.

I do like the idea of a medic unit to introduce a new form of war attrition and a "supply line" concept, but that is a modmod, not a core change.

 

[azum4roll]

I think my principal objection here is the notion that medic is a "wasted promotion" and that archers that have it are somehow "worthless". This couldn't be further from the truth.

If you have an army where all your archers use standard combat promotions, and I have an army where 2 of my archers are using medic promotions....the medic army is going to win long term. That extra healing is ridiculously good over the course of a war. And frankly the loss of a few accuracy promotions isn't that big a deal, a medic 2 accuracy I archer's damage is still pretty reasonable compared to an accuracy 3 archer. Now I certainly would not make all of my archer's medics but the great thing is...I don't have to. I only need a couple.

So the argument that the current medic promotion is bad wrong fun I just can't agree with. Its a powerful and frankly vital element of warfare at the high levels.


Now if we want to talk melee units, I can respect that medic on melee units isn't a great idea. We could just remove the promotion on melee units to avoid the "newb trap", but I'm guessing most people would rather leave it for that 1 in a 1000 time they actually do want a medic on a melee unit. But to me that is not sufficient reason to change the fundamental promotion and the way healing works. Medic is a ranged unit promotion, that's the reality, and its a good promotion on that unit type. If its not working on other unit types....than remove it or ignore it, but that's not a rationale to say the promotion is bad.

I do like the idea of a medic unit to introduce a new form of war attrition and a "supply line" concept, but that is a modmod, not a core change.

The loss isn't an Accuracy promotion. It's the delay of Range/Indirect Fire/Logistics, the actual promotions every ranged unit is going for.

 

[Stalker0]

The loss isn't an Accuracy promotion. It's the delay of Range/Indirect Fire/Logistics, the actual promotions every ranged unit is going for.

What your not accounting for is the delay in getting your premium units back in the fight. When my unit gets wounded, it has to retreat and heal. Medics can double or even triple the speed at which that unit gets back in the fight and gaining Xp....resulting in your high xp units getting those high end promotions faster than if they are sitting in the back healing.

That plus all of the other benefits of healing is more than worth the "loss" of 2 archers to medics.

 

[Fluffball]

Using medic 1 which i assume is the main promotion people with use if they use medic unless they are using a scount which doesn't really count as you aren't sacrificing a important promotion on a main combat unit thus we have 5 extra healing.

In most circumstances you will be moving a unit back to friendly territory to heal unless you have not planned very well or there is an exceptional reason and thus be healing 10hp alone and 15hp with a rank 1 medic thus healing 50% faster.

You can achieve double healing if for some reason you choose medic two but then you are double gimping the medic units and then potentially if you have planned badly and for some reason you are retreating your units to heal in enemy territory or unowned territory.

Thus while it is possible under certain circumstances to potentially geet double or triple healing it is most likely to only have 50% extra healing.

 

[CppMaster]

issue with medic unit having subpar performance because they had to sacrifice important promotions for medic promotion

What's the issue here? Every promotion delays every other promotion. Medic is just not an exception here. If you think that another promotion would be better than medic then just pick it and pick medic otherwise. Just like with every other choice.

 

[Stalker0]

Using medic 1 which i assume is the main promotion people with use if they use medic unless they are using a scount which doesn't really count as you aren't sacrificing a important promotion on a main combat unit thus we have 5 extra healing.

In most circumstances you will be moving a unit back to friendly territory to heal unless you have not planned very well or there is an exceptional reason and thus be healing 10hp alone and 15hp with a rank 1 medic thus healing 50% faster.

You can achieve double healing if for some reason you choose medic two but then you are double gimping the medic units and then potentially if you have planned badly and for some reason you are retreating your units to heal in enemy territory or unowned territory.

Thus while it is possible under certain circumstances to potentially geet double or triple healing it is most likely to only have 50% extra healing.

If your going medics....you go medic, meaning you always pick up medic 2 as soon as you can. And part of the run back to friendly territory....sometimes that's not possible, sometimes you need that mainline unit to hold out for one more turn, and getting +15 HP instead of +5 is often literally the difference between living and dying. Happens all the time.

Or sometimes your melee unit in the front takes some damage, but is fortified. with a medic 2 behind them they recover 15 hp vs 5, triple the difference, and yes that really starts to matter when you have a siege and those frontline units have to sit there taking the pain.

 

[nekokon]

What your not accounting for is the delay in getting your premium units back in the fight. When my unit gets wounded, it has to retreat and heal. Medics can double or even triple the speed at which that unit gets back in the fight and gaining Xp....resulting in your high xp units getting those high end promotions faster than if they are sitting in the back healing.

That plus all of the other benefits of healing is more than worth the "loss" of 2 archers to medics.

You're confusing "the benefits of having medic" with "the benefits of having medic on archer".
Yes having medic will keep your premium units on the frontline more and that applies to both case, but in case of having medic on archer you gimp it for 2 level worth of xp (delayed until it can get premium promotions), at its horrible growth rate of 2xp per turn. That's a lot of turns unaccounted for.
If you can still have medic on archer but without losing those 2 levels that's a big deal.

What's the issue here? Every promotion delays every other promotion. Medic is just not an exception here. If you think that another promotion would be better than medic then just pick it and pick medic otherwise. Just like with every other choice.

The issue is some promotions are just way too good compared to others. Having range/indirect fire can allow your archer to attack every single turn, and if your archer currently can only attack every 2-3 turns due to terrain/sight then it's effectively double/triple its contribution, and not just a merely 10-20% like low tier promotion.
And the benefits of having medic is undeniable unless you're playing with city defense reduced mod mod. So in this case both line are important, but you have to sacrifice one, and most of the time it would be the medic line, and ppl would rather play with mod mod than using medic.

 

[Stalker0]

If you can still have medic on archer but without losing those 2 levels that's a big deal.

Yes....an OP deal in my opinion All promotions have a trade off, that's the point of having choices. Your absolutely right that by choosing a medic, that archer won't get range/logistics/indirect fire for a long time, if ever. The difference is...you believe that medic is so weak that tradeoff is unacceptable, whereas I see medic as such a strong promotion its 100% worth it.

To this day, I still remember when I was struggling in Emperor warfare (let alone immortal). And one piece of advice I got was....are you using medics enough? I started incorporating them in my play....boom.....made all the difference. Wars that were once unwinnable to me became cake. Again I went from struggles on emperor warfare to Immortal to even going diety on occasion.

 

[nekokon]

Yes....an OP deal in my opinion All promotions have a trade off, that's the point of having choices. Your absolutely right that by choosing a medic, that archer won't get range/logistics/indirect fire for a long time, if ever. The difference is...you believe that medic is so weak that tradeoff is unacceptable, whereas I see medic as such a strong promotion its 100% worth it.

Yes but not everyone share the same opinion as you can see in this thread. Ppl would rather play with city defense reduced mod mod than having to use medic and deal with the issues that comes with it (weaker combat units, more micromanagement), thus I think it worth a change.

 

[CppMaster]

The issue is some promotions are just way too good compared to others.

Then it's a balance issue. Making medic promotion better somehow could fix it if it's too weak.

Ppl would rather play with city defense reduced mod mod than having to use medic and deal with the issues that comes with it (weaker combat units, more micromanagement), thus I think it worth a change.

How do you know that people in general prefer that. You would have to make a poll to know it.

 

[nekokon]

Then it's a balance issue. Making medic promotion better somehow could fix it if it's too weak.


How do you know that people in general prefer that. You would have to make a poll to know it.

Based on head counts in this topic more than half of the ppl who commented/reacted displayed their dissatisfaction regarding medic units being irrelevant (would rather change city defense) or too weak (combat-wise). In fact there's only 1 (or 2) seems to indicate medic is fine WITHOUT any change to anything else that directly related (city defense or combat related). And I also don't want to follow the "easier way" of changing city defense because that's a bad design (as I explained in earlier post).

Problem is some promotions just outright change the way the units do things and not just increase or decrease combat strength, and some have ramification effect when stacked, so it's an even bigger task to balance them all. If somehow there's a proposal like "removing all promotion tree/restriction, everything can be picked from lv 1, but everything is rebalanced so that every promotions are equally good" then I can consider rebalancing medic an option, not as of right now.

 

[CppMaster]

Promotions can be also balanced while being in the tree. It has been done multiple times with success

 

[nekokon]

If you can put medic I and medic II into a tree that leads to range/logistic/indirect fire then yes it can be done.
Just need to deal with all the balance/rebalance from that changes then, since pretty sure I would take that tree over everything else on every single one of my range unit without question and it will lead to more proposal/change down the line if you're willing to go that route.

 

[CppMaster]

Yeah, but I haven't said anything about changing the tree. A promotion may be balanced while stating exactly where it is.