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[NFP] [Discussion] Is striving for a Golden Classical era a trap?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kaspergm, Oct 12, 2020.

  1. Siddharth Venkatesh

    Siddharth Venkatesh Warlord

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    Classical Goldens are essential for civs reliant on Monumentality or coastal civs, since you can usually get harbors up midway through Classical for Free Inquiry. Japan also really likes Free Inquiry Classical Golden because their Commercials are insane. Otherwise, you don't necessarily need it, and a Heroic Medieval can be amazing.

    It's not often I have enough loyalty issues to make Classical Dark Age a problem. There are usually only a few cities that could have problems and governors fix those. There can be a bit of an efficiency loss in stationing a governor in an outskirt but it can be managed. I'd much rather have a Classical Dark Age than a Normal Age, unless I'm going to war in Classical, in which case Dark Ages can be a bit deadly. Even then, my goal is usually to wipe my neighbor out so a Dark Age can be managed.
     
  2. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    I like to settle aggressively towards the AI. All things being equal, it's just easier to lock down an area by settling forward and throwing a wall down, the AI just can't handle them. I could back off and maybe Classical Dark Ages will be less of a problem, but then I have to conquer more cities because the AI settled towards me instead of the other way round and that just slows everything down. I'm very unconvinced hanging back, deliberately Classical Dark Age-ing, and then using that as leverage for Medieval warfare is better than just settling aggressively, accepting a Normal Classical Age, then warring in Medieval anyway.

    I don't think that having 3 Dedications rather than 1 beats out having more cities earlier, particularly since 2 of the 4 options are only really useful if you have a very high Faith output.
     
  3. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I play on Emperor/Immortal. I've hit classical DA once or twice, but typically just the act of exploring your surroundings and getting a barb camp or two is going to get you there a lot of the time. GA seems a stretch typically though.
     
  4. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    It takes some work that's for sure. I think that's why Kasper's asking if it's a trap. Sometimes the effort you put into getting era points might slow down the faith or gold infrastructure necessary to get good use out of a Classical golden age.
     
  5. Bosque

    Bosque Warlord

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    That is my general playstyle as well. My pantheon of choice is Earth Goddess, if there are significant numbers of high appeal tiles. And if I am able to get a religion, I like the beliefs that give +4 faith for each World Wonder, and Religious Colonization, so that I never have to spend faith on more than one missionary, at most. My religion spreads with the founding of each city. Then I can spam Wonders and settlers, and if I can later get Tithe for +3 gold per city with my religion, I never have financial concerns for the rest of the game.
     
  6. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Twilight Valor is good.
     
  7. Oberinspektor Derrick

    Oberinspektor Derrick Warlord

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    Monumentality is great, but I personally think that its strength is also an issue.
    Monumentality is not only great, it is far, far superior to any other GA dedication.

    Free inquiry for instance is good, but circumstantial in that in the Classical Era, you usually don't have that many harbours/comm hubs up yet to give you an immediate advantage.
    And if you do get it in the Medieval Era, the bonus isn't nearly as strong since you're already likely to catch up in science through other means at that point.
    Not a bad dedication by any means, I'd say its quite balanced actually since it is a choice on whether or not you want it, and while giving you good bonuses, doesn't break the game if you don't choose or get it.

    Exodus of the Evangelists is likewise circumstantial, in that it can power up your religious spread, but that by itself doesn't give you any game breaking advantages.
    While nice (since you allow to get a grip on nearby unconverted cities early on, as well as make the individual missionaries far less resource intensive), it is still a choice on whether you want it or not.
    However, choosing Exodus does come at the cost of choosing (and spending faith on) early missionary/apostle spam over Monumentality's settlers and builders.
    Of those two choices, settlers are just so much better than faster missionaries with more charges.
    So we're back to square one, choosing Monumentality is just the absolute best "bang for your buck" when it comes to spending all that early faith, since it immediately catapults your small'ish kingdom into a sprawling empire.

    Personally I think this overall limits the gameplay a bit, since getting a lot of early faith and Monumentality is just too attractive an option to not consider.
    It both limits the gameplay in that you need to chase era score over other important decisions, and especially it boosts the attractiveness of faith pantheons over others.
    Heck, even in games where I have lots of plantation or pasture resources, I almost never consider going Goddess of Festivals (+1 culture from plantations) or God of the Open Sky (+1 culture from pastures), even though my unique circumstances would imply that it was a great choice.
    As long as there are good faith pantheons available, I'll usually choose those, just for the off chance that I do land Monumentality.
    Heck, I've even chosen Fire Goddess before, even though I've had only one volcano near my first two cities (unerupted even, meaning no immediate benefit from volcanic soil), just because I don't want to waste the possibility of "free faith".

    One could say that this is a pantheon issue, but I more generally think that this is an issue concerning the power of faith as a resource, and how it synergizes way too strongly with Monumentality.
    Had Monumentality for instance allowed you to buy city center buildings for faith instead (monuments and granaries etc.), I'm convinced that we wouldn't see nearly as many people choosing Monumentality anymore, and it would probably make it's power more in line with the other dedications.

    Faith as a resource and its combination with Monumentality are really the culprits behind making other choices far less attractive as of now.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
    pjotroos and Pietato like this.
  8. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    The problem is that if you do not aim for a classical golden age, you end up with a normal age, not a dark age. So the whole classical dark age versus golden age is a moot point. Unless you are sacrificing all exploration, etc for a dark age...

    And yeah, Golden Age Monumentality is extremely overpowered.
     
  9. Oberinspektor Derrick

    Oberinspektor Derrick Warlord

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    I don't mind the Normal Age though.
    I'm playing usually on Deity (occasionally Immortal when new content hits), and on those difficulty levels a Dark Age can be a severe constraint on my ability to expand.
    On lower difficulties I wouldn't mind a Dark Age at all.
    While not ideal compared to a high faith Monumentality GA, you can pull off some wonky stuff with it (like the +75% science policy for each of your cities with a holy site, lol) as well as set yourself up for a Heroic Age.
     
  10. Siddharth Venkatesh

    Siddharth Venkatesh Warlord

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    I think the +75% card is not really a good thing in the classical era. The -25% to culture is just too painful, and shooting up in science only does something if you're going for a specific timing push. Otherwise, it just makes your districts more expensive.
     
  11. Oberinspektor Derrick

    Oberinspektor Derrick Warlord

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    The -25% culture doesn't apply if the city in question has a holy site.
    And with the current meta around holy sites being the way it is (trying to rush a religion, preferably taking advantage of Work Ethic etc.), most cities should have a holy site up at early Classical so the drawback doesn't really apply.
    And if it does, it applies only to the particular city in question, it's not a flat -25% culture modifier across your empire.
    Meaning that if you have 2 out of 3 cities with holy sites, you are only taking a -8,3% culture penalty but gaining +50% science.
    And if you start getting a lot of cities without holy sites, just slot it out!
     
  12. Siddharth Venkatesh

    Siddharth Venkatesh Warlord

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    Is that correct? The tooltip doesn't say anything about that and last time I used it, it looked like a flat -25% culture across the empire. The card says "-25% culture in all cities".

    If this is correct, this policy card does get a lot better, although I think I'd still prefer it in the renaissance, since Renaissance golden is not that great anyways and if I have holy sites and faith, I'd prefer monumentality in classical and medieval.
     

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