Discussion of bugs in modded games

[Petek]

We receive reports of bugs in which the save file was created with a modded game. I'd like to discuss whether we can confirm a bug under those circumstances. Is it possible to tell whether or not the mod is causing the reported behavior? If not, then in my opinion we need an unmodded save file to confirm a bug. Is it possible to convert a modded save file into one that isn't modded?

 

[The_J]

i don't think it's possible to convert it.
To see what causes the bug we need in fact the modder, and ask him what he changed and if or if not this could somehow influence the behaviour .

 

[Petek]

That makes sense. How then do we handle this bug report? He says he's using the RealNameEarth mod. A quick search of our Civ 5 C&C forum doesn't locate any information about the mod. Also, I don't plan to clutter up my system with all the mods loaded by other players, so we have the issue of how to test and confirm the bugs after the mod creator states that his mod didn't cause the problem. Finally, will Firaxis even want to look at save files from modded games? I'll pose that question to 2K Greg on the 2K forum. We need that information, I think, before going any further.

ETA: See here.

 

[The_J]

mmhhhhhh...i guess you are right.
It's probably not worth it.

 

[Perkus]

I'm very much interested in this issue. I'm a modder, and a heavy mod user. I've been doing a ton of testing lately while writing my latest mod, and I'm finding a new bug every few hours. However, most of them are impossible to document to your standards. My saves use ~30 mods, including a private one that I develop with. About 5-6 of those are of the AffectsSaves variety. I can provide screenshots when it makes sense, but saves from me are virtually useless. I don't really expect anyone to take the trouble to acquire the set of mods I use at the right version they were at the time I reported the bug in order to try & reproduce it. Even if one restricted it to the AffectsSaves ones, which are limited in #, it's a big chore. And you can always argue it's the mods doing it.

Also, I have hacked the interface slightly now for myself to allow for *much* easier testing of combat odds errors/changes by treating even your own units as possible targets, thus bringing up the combat odds panel. This has revealed a whole slew of legitimate new bugs related to promotions & combat odds calculations. But unless I provide somebody with the hack & a detailed explanation of what & why I'm doing, it's going to be extremely difficult to "prove" such bugs. Many of them are obscure enough and depend on very specific unit combination or unit promotions. It's going to be quite difficult to find these "in the wild", as in unmodded games. Or even in modded games, because in some cases they affect units the AI never /rarely builds, so while still it those units when you build them, you'll probably never notice it except through very careful observation. I'd like to think that it's worth my while to go write all these things & document them as best as possible. Certainly Firaxis staff should care. But I doubt they'll ever make it to the "confirmed bugs" list, which is about the only place I suspect they might possibly pay some attention to. Suggestions?

 

[Petek]

I'd like to continue this discussion, but I was hoping to get a reply first from 2K Games about the matter. Their forum is down for maintenance and my post had dropped off the first page (making it less likely to receive attention). I'll open a discussion about this topic in the staff forum.

 

[atteSmythe]

Unfortunately, the only real way to confirm that the bug is in the vanilla game is to attempt to recreate it without mods. Ones like the helicopter should be relatively easy, though time-consuming to play all the way through to the modern age. The next best thing would be to create a mod that does nothing but shorten your testing time - starts the player with an advanced helicopter in the modern age. Start on a custom map that has a bunch of railroad laid out already, and replicate the bug (or not!)

Even if you can't recreate it in the plain game, though, that doesn't mean it's a bug in the mod. It could simply be a bug in how something's handled in the engine that doesn't react well to other (technically correct) changes the mod makes.

 

[Perkus]

Well, you *can* start games in a more advanced age (through Advanced Setup), all the way up to Future Era. So then it shouldn't take as long to build up enough infrastructure to make modern units. I may play around with this soon, as I need a better way to test with modern units for my latest mod.

 

[Petek]

Well, the discussion in the staff forum didn't generate any new ideas. I also never received a reply on the 2K forum.

@Perkus -- Perhaps you could post a specific bug on the 2K Games forum. That might get some attention.

 

[Perkus]

Ok, thanks for trying. I started out posting at 2K, but didn't find it terribly responsive there, and came here instead. That said, they appear to have a sticky for bugs & support, with technical support posting to it, so I guess I should post there. I probably have about a dozen I should write up, but I've been feeling too lazy to do it the last few days.