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Discussion of plans

Discussion in 'Team Mad Scientists' started by HUSch, Dec 8, 2008.

  1. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    Here sould be discussed the plans from this thread.
     
  2. topas

    topas Prince

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    Proposal (options) on building our worker

    We should decide now if we want to whip the worker as soon as BW is finished.

    Status:
    - T7 (3720 BC)
    - CERN grows to pop2 after this turn
    - warrior 7/15 hammers -> 10/15 hammers after this turn
    - BW in 8 turns -> BW finished in T15

    Options:
    a) whip
    T8: finish warrior with spice+for.GL-hill
    T9: begin worker with spice+for.GL-hill
    T15: BW finished -> revolt to slavery
    T16: whip worker
    T17: worker ready (overflow: 16 hammers)

    b1) regular built
    T8: begin worker with spice+for.GL-hill
    T15: BW finished
    T17: worker finished; continue warrior with spice+for.GL-hill
    T18: warrior finished; begin 2nd worker with spice+for.GL-hill; worker on forested GL-hill

    b2) regular built but finish warrior first
    T9: warrior finished; begin worker with spice+for.GL-hill
    T15: BW finished
    T18: worker finished; begin 2nd worker with spice+for.GL-hill; worker on forested GL-hill


    So obviously whipping does not effect "arrivel" of worker, but in the whipping-option we have
    - already passed the 1 turn anarchy for adopting slavery
    - 10 rounds exploration with the second warrior (close to cap...)
    - 16 hammers overflow
    - only pop1

    I would rather NOT whip the worker (see option b)) because the following turns seem to be stronger that way. (Using option a) we would start the 2nd worker on pop1 without the exp-bonus or we would have to grow again building a 3rd warrior...)

    If we follow option b2) we could use the wood from chopping for a workboat. (otherwise it will probably go into the 2nd worker):
    option b2)
    t18: worker moves on GL-hill; city begins 2nd worker
    t19: worker starts chopping
    t21: fishing finished; CERN switches to WB; wood from chopping into workboat
    t22: worker begins GL-hill mine
    t23: Workboat finished; continue 2nd worker; WB moves to clams (not yet connected); revolt to slavery
    t24: WB connects clams; CERN works clams+spice
    t25: GL-mine finished; CERN works clams+GL-hill mine; 2nd worker (26/60) could be whipped

    After the second worker (whipped or not) CERN could grow (working improved tiles) while building a 3rd warrior. That warrior would protect the settler we should build after the warrior.
    (If the city-site is close by, we might skip the third warrior, but that should be decided later.)
    Just noticed:
    Instead of building a GL-hill mine our first worker could also chop another forrest. That would be done in t25.
    In t25 we could then also whip the worker. -> CERN down to pop1 working the clams;
    2nd worker available in t26; Overflow (31 hammers(?)) + 4 "hammers" from clams in t26 go into a settler.
    In t27 we start regrowing working the clams and building a warrior.
    ... appears to be even stronger...



    My vote is on option b2 (or sth. like that;)).
    We can finish the second warrior before the worker for some 10 extra-turns of explorations and more important the wood from chopping will be used for a WB, which is a quite good move to make imo.
     
  3. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Why does the worker2 start without the expansive bonus? I remain BtS ignorant on many things :D

    Nonetheless I think you are not including the overflow hammers here. The overflow hammers can be applied to a worker#2 or settler#1 on t18, and then we can change production to grow to size 2, then go back to worker:
    t18: worker1 moves onto forested Grassland hill, CERN starts worker2/settler1,
    t19: worker1 starts chop, CERN switch production to [workboat? barracks? warrior3? w2/s1@16:hammers:] until size 2 pop
    t20: worker1 coninue chop...
    t21: worker1 cancel chop [saving forest :hammers: for w2/s1]
    t??: CERN grows to 2, restarts work on w2/s1, worker finishes forest chop = w2/s2@37:hammers:

    I'm not very good at doing these things without looking at the game (i'm not at my civ compy), so I don't know how long it will take CERN to grow again... but perhaps you can understand the idea still?

    EDIT: I'm not saying this is better than Option 2b (or something like that).... but I think this Option 2a should be considered in the decision-making :)
     
  4. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    Peter
    Now our food reserve is 0, so we need after whipping 7 turns to grow with only 1 :hammers: like the last turns. I think whipping is possible earliest with pop 3-4, which we 'll arrive late, because we chop the next units (settler, workboat and worker).
     
  5. topas

    topas Prince

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    Growing to pop2 with the rice takes 8 painful turns working the not improved rice right now.
    Because of this I would prefer growing after improving the clams (4:food:) or building a farm on the rice. (Then it takes 6 turns to grow.)
    (Because of this, we should try to improve these tiles aas fast as possible.)

    Prechopping is usually a strong strategy, but I wouldn't stop growing producing other stuff just to build a worker for prechopping.
    The early worker is just worth its longer productiontime because it improves tiles to work much earlier.

    I tried to find a solution, where the hammer yields from chopping or whipping will boost our economy/production most. That are (right now) workers, WB and later on settlers. ...but this has to reduce its production significantly...
    (20 hammer in a worker is no bad move, bad if you want to build a workboat (to work the clams) before finishing the worker, it's a better idea to put the hammers into the WB.)

    concerning edit:
    I tried to get max. benefit from exp-trait, time of revolt to slavery and pop-rushing.
    In 2b) our turn of revolt is while our WB is on its way from CERN to clams. Before the revolt we can get the benefit from exp-trait at pop2 and after the revolt we rush the worker asap.

    In 2a) our WB will be finshed 4 turns later (1 turn from anarchy + 3 turns from working spice for 5 turns instead of 2 turns spice+for.GL-hill) -> less food (at least 4 food for working clams instead of rice and 12 commerce (4x3 = more than 1 turn of our current research))
    Further we put some hammers into 3rd warrior, barracks or worker (without exp-bonus), while waiting for fishing.

    Some 30 hammer in a settler in turn26 + a WB + 2 workers are quite a powerful start I believe.
     
  6. topas

    topas Prince

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    Our worker is finished in 2 turns.

    How do we continue then?

    I (still) propose starting a second worker until fishing is in and the chop a workboat. Our begins chopping CERN-4 or CERN-8 asap.
    When the WB is finished and on its way to the clams, I would revolt to slavery.
    When our second chop comes in, we whip the second worker and put some ~35 hammers overflow into a settler. Then we switch to a warrior or holkan or whatever to regrow fast. (Workers chop for the settler and build a mine inbetween so it's finished when growing to pop2.)
     
  7. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    Our worker 'll chop and mine at CERN 4, CERN 8 for that we must grow sometimes. He needs 5 turns to go+chop and additional 4 turns for mine.
    I would build in the interim turn a warrior, then the workboat and finish after workboat the warrior with growing to pop 3 ( the wood-chop gain should for worker or settler). After this build worker and settler or settler and worker.
    The worker with 8 :hammers: from 2 hill-mines, city and gras-wood. a low commerce-production; the settler with clam
     
  8. topas

    topas Prince

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    HUSch
    move+chop is 4 (1+3) turns if I'm not totally wrong...

    Actually I don't like the idea to start growing before we connected the clams. Instead I would put some (2 or 3) turns into a second worker, which we'll most certainly build in the next 10 turns nevertheless.
    Then we can grow right after connecting the clams using their food-surplus and extra-commerce better.
    I would try to minimize the amount of turns to grow, because workers and settlers have an way higher roi in the early game than warriors and such...
     
  9. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Yes, it is better to grow after the clams are connected. This will also be after we revolt to slavery (3 turns from now).

    I think HUSch included the move from CERN4 to CERN8, as well as the initial move into the forest. That's why he has 5 turns instead of 4.
     
  10. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    We can't build a worker with pop 2 and working at the clam, to get a little more commerce. Our workboat is finished with the first chop.

    So is my proposed plan now:
    3240 worker 4 at hill building warrior (how many :hammers: the same)
    3200 fishing researched, worker begin chop (3 turns), workboat with 4 :hammers: research goal ?
    3160 worker chops, workboat with 3 :hammers:
    3120 worker finish chop and CERN get 20 :hammers:, workboat finish with 3 :hammers: granary with 4-6 :food:
    3080 worker begins mine (4 turns) workboat goes at clam, revolution possible (good chance).
    3040 CERN from rice to clam +3:food:, +3 :hammers:
    2960 worker finish mine, CERN from spice to mine +3:food:, +4 :hammers:
    2920 worker goes at CERN 8
    2880 warrior finish, CERN granary 19/24 :food:, no growing to pop 3.
    I would like 2840 to grow and build the warrior.

    Too much pictures, so my plan is in the post below.
     
  11. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    and so: moves like above, but change in the working tiles of CERN
    3240 building warrior with rice and dye + 1 :hammers: + 3 :food:
    3200 - 3080 the same like above we
    3040 granary 8/24 :food:, warrior 1/15 :hammers: rice and clam +5 :food: + 1 :hammers:
    3000 granary 13/24 :food:, warrior 2/15 :hammers: spice and clam +3 :food: + 3 :hammers:
    2960 granary 16/24 :food:, warrior 5/15 :hammers: mine and clam +3 :food: + 4 :hammers:
    2920 granary 19/24 :food:, warrior 9/15 :hammers: mine and clam +3 :food: + 4 :hammers:
    2880 granary 22/24 :food:, warrior 13/15 :hammers: mine and clam +3 :food: + 4 :hammers:
    2840 CERN grow to pop 3, warrior finish
     
  12. topas

    topas Prince

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    I still think, that my plan is better... while don't have those shiny symbols in it;)

    ... I'll try to improve in that matter... Maybe I can present my plan a little better later, but now I don't have enough time...

    HUSch
    Concerning your plan:
    CERN could grow easily grow 1 turn earlier, if you'd work the rice in 3000BC. (It would not delay the warrior.
    (I really dislike working that unimproved dye-tile... I would do that just in case that 1 commerce would cut research time, what it doesn't. We better work grasland-forrest or spices then...)
     
  13. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    Thx Topas, that's the reason I post it, to get better plans. My point was the growing to pop 3 when begin the next worker. The dye brings :commerce:, with the rice for spice it's possible to take wood.

    btw
    I don't find your plan, the post above isn't possible anymore. We are now in turn 19/20.
     
  14. Unionfield

    Unionfield Warlord

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    I'm for b2. Good job topic.
     
  15. Rantamplanzzz

    Rantamplanzzz Chieftain

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    the posibility of building a colonist instead of a second worker isnt even considered? thats what i would do, ¿how do you see it?.
     
  16. topas

    topas Prince

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    Rant.
    Usually it's better to build a 2nd worker before the settler.
    -> chopping power doubles
    -> improve CERN faster
    -> start on road to new city (faster founding, better military movements, traderoute!)
    -> send 1 (or 2) workers with the settler to improve tiles for new city fast -> better start for new city
     
  17. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    I think we should build a warrior, before the settler, also after the 2. worker (finish in 2920 BC), to explore the East of CERN. Perhaps there is copper, I want to know.
     
  18. topas

    topas Prince

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    After the worker, which should be finished with the chop-yield, we can build a (2) warriors to grow to pop4 and then finish our first settler (chops during growth in settler).

    I think the best way to do so is a follows:

    2920: Archimedes finishes chopping (3/3); CERN finishes worker (2(?) overflow)
    2880: Agri finished -> begin the wheel; Archimedes starts mining the hill (1/4) and aborts it asap, 2nd worker starts irrigating the rice (1/5); CERN starts on warrior (2+3:hammers: 0/15) working clams+spice (+3:food:, 0/24)
    2840: Archimedes helps irrigating the rice (2+3/5); CERN: warrior +3:hammers: 5/15, +3:food: 3/24
    2800: workers finish irrigating the rice (4+5/5); CERN switches to clams+rice warrior +1:hammers: 8/15, +6:food: 6/24
    2760: worker1 moves on a forrest-hill, worker2 moves on CERN-4; CERN: warrior +1:hammers: 9/15, +6:food: 12/24
    2720: worker1 starts chopping (1/3), worker2 continues mining (2/4); CERN: warrior +1:hammers: 10/15, +6:food: 18/24
    2680: worker1 chopping (2/3), worker2 mining (3/4); CERN: pop3 working clams+rice+spice, warrior +3:hammers: 11/15, +5:food: 0/26
    2640: worker1 choping (3/3), worker2 mining (4/4); CERN: switching on settler +23:hammers+5:food: warrior 14/15, food: 5/26

    2600: worker1 starts mining (1/4), worker2 moves on next forest; CERN: working clams+rice+GL-mine, switching back on warrior +4:hammers: 14/15 (settler 28/100), +5:food: 5/26
    2560: worker1 mining (2/4), worker2 start chopping (1/3); CERN: builds 4th warrior +7:hammers: 0/15 (settler 39/100) +5:food: 10/26; 3rd warrior available
    2520: worker1 mining (3/4), worker2 chopping (2/3); CERN: warrior +4:hammers: 7/15 (settler 39/100) +5:food: 15/26
    2480: worker1 mining (4/4), worker2 chopping (3/3); CERN: switching on settler +24:hammers:+5:food: 39/100 (warrior 11/15), food: 20/26
    2440: workers...(moving to next chops?); CERN: working clams+rice+GL-forest and switching back on warrior +2:hammers: 11/15 (settler 68/100) +6:food: 20/26
    2400: workers...(chopping?); CERN: pop4, working clams+rice+2xGL-mine; warrior :+7hammers:13/15 (settler 68/100) +4:food: 0/28
    2400: workers...(chopping2?); CERN: continue settler +12:hammers:+4:food: 68/100) food: 4/28; 4th warrior finished
    2400: workers...(chopping3?); CERN: continue settler +7:hammers:+4:food: 80/100) food: 4/28 -> settler in 2 turns

    - If workers were chopping -> +40:hammers: -> settler in 2360 + 31:hammers: overflow in next project ... maybe 3rd worker(?).
    - growth to pop5 would then take 6 turns. Whenever we take these 6 turns we could build a granery or better units (axemen, holkans).
     

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