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[RD] Discussion on IQ (split from effect of white people on America)

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Bootstoots, Aug 1, 2018.

  1. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Is it possible to carry out an IQ test in genuinely clinical conditions? To make sure that all participants are well-fed, well-rested, that they aren't dealing with any ongoing stress or anxiety outside of the context of the test? It doesn't seem like it's enough to just factor in developmental environment, as if the test was equivalent to a perfect scan of the entire neurological system, and not a process which the subject has to work through with a pen and paper.

    The whole mechanism for "determining" IQ seems almost deliberately designed to produce a correlation between wealth and IQ, which on any sizable scale is going to tend towards a correlation between race and IQ, regardless of whatever correlations might exist even under perfect conditions.
     
  2. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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    I dont see how... simulating 'equal' environments would be extraordinarily difficult and then the results wont really tell us anything about large groups of people, just the individuals in the study
     
  3. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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    I should have responded to this with more information. I saw an article a while back that gave me the impression really smart people have a higher rate of possibly related problems. This may not have been the article but the story was making the rounds back then.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bad-news-for-the-highly-intelligent/

    End nerd persecution! Maybe its nurture and not nature, the smart kid is the target of abuse by kids who aint so smart and resent the kid who is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
  4. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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  5. Commodore

    Commodore Technology of Peace

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    Sounds like an excuse to dismiss any results you don't agree with.
     
  6. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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    Reminds me of that scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian



    hmm...got dragged into watching this. Monty's top 10



    bummer, the top 10 didn't have this one



    pardon me while I watch an hour or so of videos
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
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  7. Mark1031

    Mark1031 Chieftain

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    Well I know many Psych/cog sci/Neurosci researchers that use it regularly. As for the cultural bias claim, that has been addressed (for native born in US) and unless you think arranging blocks and puzzle pieces is culturally biased they correlate with the verbal components independent of the subculture. In any case, it is just a test like a great number of other tests in Psych research and you can argue what word you put on what it measures but it has high retest reliability and is correlated with other outcomes. There seems to be a great deal of fuss because of the word intelligence which may be hard to define but it doesn’t seem reasonable to argue that something like what many people think of as intelligence exists and it is not uniform within the population. Whether this measures it, whether even the spatial components might have bias across major cultural divides, and whether it might be improved or other better measures developed I am agnostic to.
     
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  8. Hehehe

    Hehehe Chieftain

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    Does sports require a high IQ? I guess I'll take your word for it.

    Oh no, Wicherts is an excellent choice. A man who goes on a crusade, only to end up proving the opposite of what he intended to. He's not the only one, by the way.

    Well here's my counter: so what? Yes, there are environmental factors that influence intelligence. Lead poisoning, malnutrition, child abuse, etc. etc. can all lower a person's IQ. None of this is controversial. Let me go through the basics here: the hereditarian position states that IQ is the product of both environment and genetics. The idea that you can find environmental factors that influence intelligence does not contradict that in any way. If you want to pretend that this data is meaningful, you'd need to show that these environmental factors of yours can account for the entire gap. Even if we imagine that every single sub-Saharan African who's ever been tested has suffered from severe malnutrition, it still wouldn't explain the entire gap.

    But I guess one could always argue that Africa is such a different environment, that meaningful comparisons are impossible. Because of this, it would be more useful to look at populations living in the Western countries. Like, say, African-Americans for example. Are you going to argue that 100% of African-Americans suffer from severe malnutrition?

    Usually, even the most incompetent pop-sci writers include a link to the original papers. Not at the Telegraph it seems. That alone is grounds for dismissal. The text itself is pretty amazing too. Short-term memory, reasoning and a verbal component? Yes, these are included in IQ tests. That article just states things; no proof, no reasoning, no links to original research.

    Yes, there are all kinds of people trying to come up with all kinds of silly tests that would erase the IQ gap. We can talk about emotional IQ or multiple intelligences if you want, but there's a reason why people use IQ instead of those.
    Humans are genes expressed in an environment. If two humans have the same exact environment, then the resulting variation in outcomes has to be due to genes, no? If two humans have the exact same genes, then the resulting variation has to be due to the environment, no? One could argue that no two environments are ever the same, but genes can be (identical twins reared apart). There are also more indirect ways of separating environment from genetics (adoption studies, genetic similarity, etc)

    Wait, how does that matter if we're examining a single generation?

    Is it possible to live out one's entire life in genuinely clinical conditions? Should we test the real world, rather than these "genuinely clinical conditions" which might not even be possible to reach? As for wealth and IQ, you do realize that we can control for wealth?
     
  9. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Come on. Some sports do need considerable intelligence for one to star in them. It goes back to different types of intelligence. Afterall, intelligence isn't just contained in the person's consciouness; its source is almost entirely in the unconscious. In the example i mentioned, of basketball, anyone who has ever played basketball knows that you don't consciously calculate while shooting; it largely is intuitive, which in turn means it comes from calculations in the unconscious.
    If you only want to identify intelligence as solving iq math-related schematics, it is your view which should be taken with a grain of salt :)
     
  10. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    I don't follow. It's harder for concentrate if they're tired, stressed, or poorly-fed. Is that.. is that not true? Are we disagreeing about that?
     
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  11. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    maybe someone who is not smart enough to scan an article shouldn't be commenting on intelligence at all? this is the study referenced: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23259956 took me literally four seconds to find it. the leading scientists reasoning on why IQ isn't valid as a measurement tool for intelligence is sound

    What makes one person more intellectually able than another? Can the entire distribution of human intelligence be accounted for by just one general factor? Is intelligence supported by a single neural system? Here, we provide a perspective on human intelligence that takes into account how general abilities or "factors" reflect the functional organization of the brain. By comparing factor models of individual differences in performance with factor models of brain functional organization, we demonstrate that different components of intelligence have their analogs in distinct brain networks. Using simulations based on neuroimaging data, we show that the higher-order factor "g" is accounted for by cognitive tasks corecruiting multiple networks. Finally, we confirm the independence of these components of intelligence by dissociating them using questionnaire variables. We propose that intelligence is an emergent property of anatomically distinct cognitive systems, each of which has its own capacity.


    I don't need to show you that environmental factors in Africa can cause a huge gap in testing. You are already set in what you want to believe and no amount of evidence will change that. If it is true that malnutrition, a single factor of the dozen factors I've mentioned (that you ignored) can account for up to 10 point difference in IQ, then all these other factors together surely can make up 8 points of difference.

    Are you being serious? having the exact same environment is, quite frankly, literally impossible. Even twins raised by the same parents have different environments (peer group, different parental treatment, romantic partners and so on).

    Yes, yes there is. Every scientist has an agenda, every piece of research is financed by someone, many people have a distinct interest in these kind of "race and IQ" studies being published. I'm sure that's not what you meant, though, because you blindly trust those results that strengthen your already set beliefs and your narrative.
     
  12. Hehehe

    Hehehe Chieftain

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    Your example seems like something that has more to do with practice, rather than intelligence. I'm not even sure where you're trying to go with this, but it does seem like it's going nowhere
    It's considered good practice to cite sources. As to your study, what of it? What is that supposed to prove? We can debate the subcomponents of intelligence, but what good will that do? Yes, there are different components of intelligence. That's why IQ tests have different subtests. Your article doesn't refute the validity of IQ in any way. This is not a big revelation, and it certainly isn't any kind of refutation. I don't know if you realize this, but IQ isn't actually a single number. It's the combined result of several subtests.
    Malnutrition accounted for a 10 point difference in a few extreme cases. That's not applicable to all of Africa, and it certainly doesn't explain why we see similar huge gaps even in Western countries.
    It's funny you should say that. I've in fact given this quite a fair amount of thought: what evidence would it take to convince me that these IQ gaps aren't genetic? I see two possible answers to this questions: 1. closing the IQ gaps (and the associated gaps in real world outcomes). If the gaps disappear, the debate becomes meaningless. So far, that's not happening. 2: scientists find the genes that code for intelligence, and find that they're evenly distributed among populations. That'd be pretty solid. But what we've found so far suggests the exact opposite.

    You on the other hand seem like a blind zealot. I don't think there is any amount of evidence that would get you to change your mind. You're just going to continue to believe what you believe, no matter how much it conflicts with reality, aren't you? You're going to keep on going on your egalitarian crusade, and you'll be perpetually amazed as to why all of your efforts fail to produce equality, and then you'll blame magic unicorns and magic systemic racism for the failures of these egalitarian policies? As long as these gaps are impossible to close, then as far as the real world is concerned, they're 100% genetic.
    *sigh* you could have simply read my original message and quoted it in its entirety:
    It seems like you're projecting your own biases onto me. I'm simply following the mainstream opinion on this. Most scientists believe that race gaps in intelligence are, to at least some degree, due to genetics (Rindermann, Coyle, Becker 2013; Snyderman & Rothman 1984).
     
  13. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I am talking about practice - not a game, not a game, but practice :mischief:
    Anyway, how do you think "practice" produces a result in hitting the target? It isn't conscious, but processes ongoing in the unconscious. Which obviously are part of intelligence; i mean to argue otherwise would be like claiming that a building isn't tied to foundations, and not even needs actual ground to rest upon.

    In math it is well established that intuitive sense plays a crucial role. Eg it is often the case than major mathematicians sense something is true, and then move on to discover a proof for it. Such primarily non-conscious foundation is also found in every creative field; eg in art.
    There are far more parts to intelligence than merely a (largely learned) ability to compare forms, although all intelligence types rest on the person's relative ability to think or sense objects in a complicated manner.
     
  14. Hehehe

    Hehehe Chieftain

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    Ok, I'll try to take you seriously. What's the link between sports and intelligence? What kind of correlation is there between IQ and sports ability? What literature can you cite that supports your wild speculation?
     
  15. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Hm, nice attitude. Did you honestly expect a positive reaction?
    Anyway, i was trying to tell you - in a rather more polite way that the one you brought upon yourself, by several other posters in the thread - that your sense of intelligence as just being what is picked up in iq tests is very basic. Furthermore, i am not the only person in the thread who can guess some background for your view - i sadly can even think of a rather ridiculous "scholar" (one local celebrity in your country) in Finland, a poor idiot who thinks he shows stuff about ancient-to-modern-greeks, and apparently has a good audience for his dumb and racist views.
    Instead i will refer you to a few relatively known individuals who have commented on the value of intuitiveness and itself being the root of intelligence, Einstein, Caratheodory, Kafka, Baudelaire, Plato and De Maupassant to name a few. Most would identify them as intelligent, though i am not sure how they would fare with some clownish sociology scholars of the moment ;)
     
  16. Hehehe

    Hehehe Chieftain

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    It seemed like you were going off on some rather... unnecessary tangent. As for sports requiring intelligence, does it really? Even if it does, so what? Presumably, physical ability is still more important in sports than intelligence?
    I have no idea who you're talking about
     
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  17. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I am only egalitarian insofar that I believe all human beings should enjoy the same rights, not that all human beings are the same (which is ridculous). I think most people who aren't egalitarian in that sense are, frankly, ****** in the head.

    You're constructing an embarrassing strawman, note that I've never once mentioned racism as a reason why people do poorly in IQ tests, I cited relevant environmental factors which you've ignored three times now. Also, I am not a strong supporter (and never said I was) of "egalitarian policies", I assume you mean something like affirmative action? Again, you are completely strawmanning out of the blue because you have ran out of things to say.

    All your talk about "da real world" and "magic unicorns xD" will not change the fact that IQ as a measurement tool for intelligence is hotly debated and that "race science" is a fringe field filled with questionable people who are "ideologically challenged". Anyone who lives "in the real world" must accept that science is not infallible, that scientists have agendas, that papers are financed by a person or institution with a pragmatic intention and that most of the knowledge we take for granted now will be disproven in but a few decades.

    100 years ago you would have gone on and on about skull shapes, 200 years ago you would have zealously defended the belief that blacks are closer to monkeys than to actual humans, because after all, that is what some scientists believed back then. I love how you always reassure yourself that your opinion is a mainstream one, that it is common and respected, as if that meant anything at all. One should stand up for one's beliefs no matter whether they're respected or not.

    "My beliefs aren't that outlandish! See, there are other people that think that brown people are inherently inferior!" The only response to so pathetic a statement is to shake my head and walk away.

    (I also like how you ignore all the relevant parts in Kyriakos' post and go on only to cite the ones that do not deal with intelligence, nicely dodged there, bud. This is how you discuss: You take apart a statement, put the burden of proof on someone else, then ask them for a multitude of scientific sources, a.k.a. a load of work to put into a post. This strategy is very common among your kind though, so I am not surprised at all.)
     
  18. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Do IQ tests actually test "the real world", though? People's psychological and emotional state is fluid. To get even an approximation of real life you'd have to test a given subject dozens times, at different times of the day, week, month and year, in different settings. An hour in a room in some psych department isn't any more effective of "the real world" than it is of clinical conditions.

    I don't think you know what "control" means, in a statistical context? You "control for wealth" when trying to establish other correlations- between race or gender or, I don't know, shoe size- it doesn't mean that we've just magically factored it out of the test. If a bias is built into a test at a basic structural level, you can't just model your way out of that.
     
  19. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Should be noted, of course, that most highly intelligent people seem to be less interested in actual wealth gaining. Do you know of many (eg) great mathematicians who were millionaires? ;)
    It is more usual to find average "iq" people who are very much into collecting a fortune, and they do so due to a variety of non-intelligence tied reasons.
     
  20. Hehehe

    Hehehe Chieftain

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    As far as the facts of the matter go, we're reaching a point where you're simply saying the same thing over and over again, without addressing my points. Yes, starvation can lower IQ. No, it's not common enough to explain the IQ gap, not even close. Not in Africa, and especially not in Europe or North America, where there are also IQ gaps.

    As for your positions, I assumed that you believe that in Western countries, these gaps are due to some kind of racism. Was I wrong on that? Are you going to claim that starvation is also the cause of that gap?
    I see that you're getting emotional. That's never a good place for a reasonable, factual conversation to go. Maybe you should relax and take a break?
    Kyriakos claimed that doing well in sports requires intelligence. Is it unfair of me to put the burden of proof on him?
    You control for wealth by comparing people who have similar wealth. Simple stuff. There are also other, more indirect ways to control for wealth, and we've already done these studies many times.
     

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