Discussion the Comings and Goings Thread

[hobbsyoyo]

I think we need some changes to that thread in OT. I understand why the mods are so aggressive in policing discussions there but I think it's a bit obnoxious to be honest. Can we convert the thread from a permanently pinned one to just a normal thread so we can have more discussions?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Then it sounds like we don't need the pinned, no-discussion thread. Obviously we cannot use it without breaking the rules as it seems every other comment winds up sparking a bunch of deletions by the mods.

 

[Synobun]

Thanks for making this thread. When I asked if we should make one and got ignored I sort of let it go; I'm glad you didn't.

I think the threads should be merged. It doesn't make sense to ban discussion.

But if that's the position the staff wants to stick with, then the discussion thread counterpart should be pinned alongside the Comings and Goings thread. It's annoying (for both members and staff) to constantly say, "Hey, you need to talk about this elsewhere!" and then having to go through the "Where is this elsewhere?" "Oh, it's right here." song and dance every time. It's unnecessary work for everyone involved; for moderators who need to delete and move posts, and for members to see an arrival/departure and then need to back out of the thread, scroll down the page or go to the next page, find the discussion thread, and then make a comment about it.

I don't believe we have nearly enough comings or goings to worry about obscuring someone's arrival or departure through discussion, especially when the discussion is limited to those arrivals and departures.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

That's pretty much my thought exactly. I don't get mad at the mods for enforcing the rules, I just think this particular rule is unenforceable and unnecessary.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I think we need some changes to that thread in OT. I understand why the mods are so aggressive in policing discussions there but I think it's a bit obnoxious to be honest. Can we convert the thread from a permanently pinned one to just a normal thread so we can have more discussions?

I oppose unpinning it. The reason for that is that I was the moderator who originally stickied it after being asked by several people (who informed me that they'd been making this very sensible request for years). The reason it wasn't stickied before was due to the ridiculous "tradition" of only having one stickied thread in OT (the rules that were so outdated and incomplete as to be useless).

So after these requests, I just decided to sticky it and see what happened. The overall result for the forum was an easily-accessible, easily-visible place for people to say hello, goodbye, I'm back, without having to go through the hassle of finding the thread. Of course this assumes they even knew it existed, which new people didn't - hence why they would no sooner say hello then they were promptly infracted for making a personal thread - aka spam - and some would get offended and leave. The workload for the moderators was lessened, and the overall effect has been positive. I would hate to see this undone, as it's one of the positive changes I am responsible for - a legacy, if you will, and I'm pleased that it's still here and still appreciated.

My view is that deleting posts that directly relate to the introduction of a new person, or the leaving/return of others is obnoxious. There were a few friendly posts welcoming my friend Birchbark22 to CFC a couple of years or so back when she posted her "hi, I'm new" introductory post, and those were promptly removed. My friend never even got to see them before they were deleted. When she found out, she concluded that since the staff decided to delete her welcome messages, that meant she really wasn't welcome here after all. She never returned, and we lost the opportunity to welcome a poster who would have made a good addition to OT.

Those of us who expressed dismay at Mary's departure had our posts moved to some thread she didn't know about, and were accused of "yakking" (which was rude and an example of inconsistency since there are a lot of posts still there that could also be considered "yakking" but were allowed to remain).

My view is that if there are a few related posts to the member's message of being new, leaving, or returning, it's harmless. It's not like a derailment that can sometimes go on for pages. Most don't even run more than two or three posts. I don't see the problem.

I do see a problem with unstickying this thread. If that happens, we go back to having the problem I originally stickied it in order to fix.

 

[Catharsis]

100% agree with Valka. The comings/goings thread is important for new arrivals (inasmuch as we still have any) and it's important that it is:

• visible
• welcoming (being unwelcoming in that thread is pretty much the only thing I've gone to a mod to complain about in my years here)

So I would suggest that more lax moderation of discussion in that thread would be the best solution. If we're still worried about postcount whoring then just make it a serial thread that gets moved to the archive.

Unstickying the thread is a baffling suggestion.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I thought the thread being stickied was the reason why they had to moderate it so heavily.

 

[Catharsis]

Well if that's the case then surely the questions to ask are 'why is that?' and 'can that be changed'?

It's not, by the way. If any moderator tells you it is then that's a cop-out. Look at Abaddon's OP here - this is in 2006 so it's before the thread got stickied, but ainwood is still enforcing the 'no discussion' rules.

 

[Camikaze]

The need for the rule is proportional to the extent of discussion which takes place. Staff really would not mind a very small back and forth of "hey, I'm back", "where were you? how was it?", "I had some exams, and they went okay". It's when the discussion balloons from there, which it can quite easily do, that there is a problem. It's of a piece with the old member photo thread rule that you couldn't have more than 2 consecutive non-photo posts - in both cases, what is essentially a private conversation could easily make the thread useless for everyone else.

So I suspect OT moderators would be open to a rule somewhere between absolutely no discussion, and discussion free-for-all, and it's probably still worthwhile having a separate discussion thread for people to be directed to, when the discussion does hit whatever limit is set.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

it's probably still worthwhile having a separate discussion thread for people to be directed to, when the discussion does hit whatever limit is set.

In which case a link to that separate thread should be included in each successive Comings & Goings thread when the old ones reach post #1000. It's very off-putting to see mod text that basically says, "You people are talking too much, stop it or post here." If they knew that other thread existed in the first place, they would be less likely to violate the Comings & Goings rules.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Every other forum I've ever been on that has some sort of newcomers/welcome thread, allows responses along the lines of "hi" and "welcome to the forum". Indeed that seems to be the entire point of the thread. Restricting it to some factual list of comings and goings, like some sort of ship's log book, seems rather pointless.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Well, rather strong value judgements were made in the thread on the matter of Mary's departure.
There may be all manner of good faith reasons for that, but it is still a behavioor i feel the staff shouldn't allow in most cases.

Two effects naturally follow:
1) The thread gets a bit of an aftertaste of sorts, becoming in effect a popularity contest.
2) Users lauding the leaving are directly and actively provoking value judgements that implicitly or explicitly differ from theirs.

In fact it just so happens that someone, arguably in equally good faith, joked about how Mary's departure clearly constituted the end of OT or some such (if my memory serves me).
Speculatively, this was meant as a friendly ironic quip about the praise heaped onto Mary rather than a negative comment on her person per se.
But i'm sure you can see how slippery this slope is.

In fact i find it easy to see how such comments once permitted could have escalated into a full blown debate on all angles of Mary's departure, seeing how just that happened later in another thread.

This strikes me as an intuitively reasonable position.

Please give me some credit for understanding how far it's safe to take additional comments in this thread. As mentioned upthread, I'm the person who stickied it many years ago, after several people pointed out how useful and sensible it would be to have this thread readily available so people wouldn't have to hunt for it and new people would know where to introduce themselves and not be infracted for making a personal thread.

Of course an extended debate on Mary's departure wouldn't have been appropriate. But a simple expression of dismay isn't inappropriate. If it were, then to be fair and equitable all expressions of dismay or welcome/welcome-back at people leaving, joining, or returning should be disallowed as "yakking."

But it's evident that some of these comments are allowed and others aren't. As mentioned, when people welcome newcomers and those welcome messages are promptly removed, the new person ends up not feeling welcome at all and never comes back. That doesn't speak well of CFC.

 

[Synobun]

It is rather pointless when welcoming someone or saying goodbye to someone is a first-come-first-serve scenario, redeemable up to the first 3 to 5 posters.

Anyways, since it seems that's the way the staff wants to go, how about pinning the conversation thread where we are allowed to talk about arrivals and departures?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I don't think there is a way to enforce the current rules in the comings and goings thread without coming off as arbitrary and capricious even though that's clearly not the intent. I also think the mods are needlessly increasing their workload by being so strict.