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Discussion Thread for UKNES Reborn

Discussion in 'Never Ending Stories' started by uknemesis, Jul 22, 2005.

  1. uknemesis

    uknemesis The Nemesis

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    Hey guys, finally got round to making the discussion thread for UKNES Reborn. The actual NES will probably be posted either Saturday night or Sunday night (Sunday most likely), depending on how many questions this thread throws up lol.

    Now, this thread may end up taking more the role of a questionnaire lol, as I would love to hear people's views on the following subjects:

    MAP

    The old European UKNES map will be used for this, once I can find it again. Armies, Fleets, Fortifications and Cannon will all be shown on the map.

    (1)*****If anyone knows where to get the old UKNES map, please reply! Thanks!*****

    ERA

    I have selected the Napoleonic era.

    (2)*****Thoughts on this?*****

    ECONOMY

    Right, let's get down to business. Each province will give you a certain amount of income, set by the terrain which will be posted underneath the map on the front page. This has a flip-side, as those with fertile pastures are likely to be the hardest to defend (see Combat later on), however, they will also provide the biggest populations (see Population later on).

    TERRAIN/STARTING POPULATION/GOLD INCOME/TERRAIN BONUSES
    Fertile plains/5/5/-1 to Defender
    Rolling hills/4/4/None
    Hills/3/3/+1 to Defender
    Forests/2/2/+2 to Defender
    Mountains/1/1/+3 to Defender, units produced by population are Veteran

    (3)*****Are these bonuses too strong?*****

    Trade routes will bring in 1 gold per turn to each of the two countries involved, and cost 3 gold for each country to set up.

    As for breaking trade routes, you get your original investment back, increasing the likelihood of a betrayal, and giving nations a cash boost option if they sacrifice their trade route. This is ONLY if one of the trading nations choose to break the trade route - NO money would be able to be got out of the trade route while it was being blocked by an enemy. Breaking a trade route would give you the 3 gold back the same turn, and would deny you the 1 gold from it that turn, but your opponent would still get the one gold from it that turn before having their 3 gold given back the next turn.

    Trade routes must be over either your own provinces, the person you're trading with's, or allied or neutral provinces. They cannot go through enemy provinces or neutral ones that have declared an embargo against you. When going via sea provinces, they can only go through those with either your ships or your trading partner's ships in, or neutral or allied ships in. Any enemy ships or neutral ones blockading you, and the trade ships just won't go out, no matter what.

    Fortifications cost 4 gold for a small fortification, which adds +1 bonus to all defenders, 7 gold for a medium fortification, which adds +2 bonus to all defenders, and finally 10 gold for a large fortification (or fort if your prefer) which adds +3 to all defenders.

    (4)*****How do these trading and fort ideas sound? The trading one is designed to increase mistrust ;) *****

    EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND RESEARCH

    I have decided to ignore this aspect of gameplay to streamline the game.

    (5)*****For or against? Tell me.*****

    POPULATION, LOYALTY AND CREATING UNITS

    Now this is where this UKNES will get a little bit different. Each province will have an available fighting-age male population, Men (cheers to Gelion for this little gem).

    This will be your population in that province that can be called to arms. They will be split into three loyalties - Fanatical, Loyal and Questionable. A population amount in Population Units (each population unit = one army or fleet) will be given for each of these. Provinces you begin with, or claim, will be the most loyal. If you have more Questionable population than Fanatical or Loyal, a rebellion is likely to happen.

    That's the only real affect of that number on the province itself - oh, and when you take over a province from another nation, the Loyal amount stay the same, but the Fanatical and Questionable populations flip. So if you've taken over a province from an enemy with a mostly Fanatical population, you're in for a rocky ride!

    Now you may be wondering what the hell effect this has on gameplay. The number one will be that you can't build units in a province without available population (don't worry, they will increase naturally over time, and slowly regenerate over time after you have built units using them), and that you can choose which loyalty to take the unit from. So if you recruit from the Fanatical amount, your new unit will be Fanatical, which DOES have an effect on combat and the likelihood of your new unit running from battle to save its skin. However, a word of warning - if Questionable population units outnumber the Loyal and Fanatical ones, you should keep at least one Loyal or Fanatical Army in the province, as a rebellion is a possibility.

    Fleets and armies require one population unit each to build.

    Population cannot be moved from one province to another.

    (6)******What does everyone think about the loyalty idea?*****

    RAISING LOYALTY

    You can spend 1 gold in a province per turn to make the Loyalty rise. This will cause either 2 Population Units to rise from Questionable to Loyal, or 1 Population Unit to rise from Loyal to Fanatical.

    (7)*****Commets on this? I'm considering scrapping the Loyal to Fanatical jump, and making it that you can only earn Fanatical units by giving a province stability etc, and increasing the Questionable to Loyal cost to 1 Population Unit per 1 gold. This will rise naturally too, as stability brings happy populations, so should I not allow this buying of loyalty?

    By the way, Loyal will be the most common loyalty, except in war-torn provinces which are often changing hands, where many will become Questionable (this may make the flipping when a province changes hands bit hard, ideas?)*****

    UNITS AND COMBAT

    Finally, down to the good stuff.

    Armies and Fleets will cost 3 gold each to build.

    Combat revolves around rolling a number on a D20, with Green units having to roll 5 or under to score a "strike" (see later), Regular having to roll 6 or under, Veteran 7 or under, and Elite 8 or under, after bonuses have been added on. As you can imagine, this makes experienced units very deadly, which is why they will be quite hard to gain.

    (8)*****Are experienced units too strong?*****

    Experience will be reflected by the unit's health (as in Civ3) and its roll amount as mentioned above. An elite unit can take 4 hits before it dies, a veteran one 3, a regular one (which built units will be) can take 2, and green units just 1. Moutainous terrain may produce veteran units automatically due to the harshness of life there (see the Terrain table under Economy), otherwise changes in a unit's experience will be due to a number of victories or defeats (you can move down experience levels too!). This will be quite a few due to the deadliness of experienced units, probably about 3 per level.

    A unit will attempt to retreat once it is reduced to a single "strike", and yes, this does mean that green units aren't too reliable. Loyalty can affect this though - if you've told a fanatical unit to fight to the death, it will.

    Damaged units will cost less gold to repair. I'm thinking if the army costs 3 gold to build, it'll cost 1 gold per "strike". Ie; an elite unit reduced to 1 strike would cost 3 gold to return to 4 strikes. This is the cost of a new unit, true, but your restored unit it Elite, which a new army wouldn't be.

    (9)*****Does this combat system sound alright? Are the bonuses too large?*****

    Terrain, as I mentioned earlier, will have a bonus effect for the defender's units if it is hilly, woody or mountainous. See the terrain chart above for details.

    Fortifications will give +1, +2 and +3 bonuses to all the defender's units depending on their size (Small, Medium and Large).

    Cannons, which cost 5 gold each, are an expensive but cool unit. One cannon unit can cancel out 1 Bonus point from either Fortifications or Terrain. So 3 cannon would cancel out the bonus from a large fortification. However, cannons cancel each other out (think hard to fire if being forced to keep your head down by opposing cannon), so 4 cannon would be required to completely cancel out a defender with no terrain bonuses, but a +3 fortification bonus and 1 cannon (ie; 4 v 4). If you have more cannon than the defender has bonuses and cannon, or vice versa, then for each extra cannon you get a +1 bonus up to a maximum of +5.

    Cannons require no population units.

    Cannon can be captured if left without armies to guard them, or if they are unable to retreat with retreating armies.

    (10)*****Are cannons too strong, or too weak?*****

    Cannon and armies move one province per turn, fleets one sea per turn.

    Finally, on land, Fanatical units receive a +1 bonus, Loyal none, and Questionable units receive a -1 penalty.

    Oh, and unit will most likely have a small upkeep per turn, and as for moving across water, rules are likely to be typical, haven't decided yet.

    (11)*****Thoughts on upkeep and water rules?*****

    STARTING POSITIONS

    Players will most likely start in their capital province surrounded by vacant provinces, as per the old UKNESs (all the old maps have been deleted by CF, and I've got rid of mine, so map is gonna be a problem lol, gonna have to hunt one down!).

    (12)*****Ideas on starting positions? Should it be a land grab as I think?

    Finally...

    Unit readouts for each province and an overall player breakdown would be PMed to the player at the end of each turn.

    Any questions? Comments, views, opinions and ideas welcomed. Constructive criticism especially welcome.

    UKNemesis

    PS: Now been streamlined.
     
  2. Kozmos

    Kozmos Jew Detective

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    Looks good,but I dont like the whole Battle Phase thing,too complicated.Need to see the map though.
     
  3. Gelion

    Gelion Captain

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    I agree with Cleric
     
  4. erez87

    erez87 Lord of Random

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    What erez world map?
     
  5. uknemesis

    uknemesis The Nemesis

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    Hmmm, when I came up with the idea of a Battle Phase, this NES was still leaning towards the story NES side rather than a pure board game NES. With that in mind, if I use a true combat system, then I would ditch the Battle Phase idea.

    As for maps, need to find it first. Look back at the old UKNESs based in Europe to see the map, just gonna have to go hunt for it again to get a bmp version lol. As for the world one I was considering, it's posted by erez in the first page of the first Map Request stickied thread.

    Any other ideas or comments? Constructive criticism is appreciated, and any kind of view is lol!

    UKNemesis
     
  6. blackheart

    blackheart unenlightened

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    I like the idea, but don't let people reserve nations just yet!
     
  7. uknemesis

    uknemesis The Nemesis

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    lol no one can reserve nations yet cos I don't even know which map it's going to be on, and even if I do, I hate the idea of people reserving nations before the NES has even begun.

    Anyway, realised I missed out two of my biggest ideas - a new working for artillery, and spies, and am going to include these in a new streamlined ruleset which will be posted within the hour.

    UKNemesis
     
  8. Jason The King

    Jason The King Deity

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    It all looks really good nem, i just hope you can make a program for it, cus without it, it will be hell to update :)
     
  9. EffingPrancer

    EffingPrancer Chieftain

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    I almost considered starting to moderate NESes again just for the cool name it would have now.

    P-NES.

    Yes, that is the level of maturity I have, I think that it would be funny to have a NES called P-NES. (Prancer's Never Ending Story).

    -

    EDIT: Coincidentally I decided against it.

    Part 2 EDIT: uk, sorry to say that I'm way too hungover to read that much, but I'll give my thoughts at a later date.
     
  10. RoddyVR

    RoddyVR Veteran Board NESer

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    MAP

    ye, use the old europe ones (one of the later Uknesses. earlier ones (like 3) were easier for some nations)

    ERA

    ye napolion, great. i'd say forget the "later use later ages" just stick with one age.

    ECONOMY
    love the "more income harder to defend" thing.

    trade routes- make sure not to make trade routes be able to provide more income then the land a person ownes. i hated that in the wargame, its unbalancing.
    getting back the money for breaking a trade route (one of your own) is a great idea. incentives for backstabing. nice.

    coton mills/factories - i never liked factories much. i think all it does is make the lands worth more (why not make them worth more from start) and slows down the initial expansion. makes it: expand -> improve -> conquer
    istead of just plain: expand -> conquer

    EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND RESEARCH
    good plan. who needs education when you have artillary. lol
    most research systems in board games are too complicated (or too simplistic to be worth it)

    POPULATION, LOYALTY AND CREATING UNITS
    like the population idea. does population grow itself (ie add 10% every turn) or something. cause otherwise you either have to start with populations that will never run out, or we'll run out..... ye, that's what i said hope it made more sense to you then to me.

    rebelions? um..... ok.... my advice here is be carefull. if its not a well thought through meckanism it'll backfire.
    loyalty- cool. i like the flipping population.... i mean i like that they flip, not the other way you could undestand that.

    experience - how about. if an army looses a fight, its experience goes down (lost soldiers had to replace with recruits), if it wins one, it gains experience. maybe take into account HOW BADLY they beat the other side.... (like if they barely won, then that dont count cause most of their soldiers are dead too).

    RAISING POPULATION

    interesting. but building a town to raise population seems strange. towns are just a way to concentrate population, not make more of it. hell farmers proly have more kids then citydwellers on average. again i would suggest a steady growth for population (like 10% or something every turn), with maybe modifiers for if you're at war or not. towns could raise the % or something. or maybe cancel negative effects of war on pop growth (people feel safer in cities cause they know their army will defend the city, where as defending a single farm is well, unlikely)

    RAISING LOYALTY
    cool. bribing my own population.

    UNITS AND COMBAT
    i suggest scrapping the combat phase and addopting a strict combat system. i've made quite a few for my games, can give you links if you want (i'll have to find them, but wont take long) and you can see if you can swipe some parts of them. one of them was even built for having % bonuses thrown in.


    STARTING POSITIONS AND BONUSES

    i'd vote/suggest against unique units and nation abilities. i like level playing fields. and unique abilities always end up being uneven. but then again it adds interest to the game. so its a trade off i think. not sure here. just dont go overboard and make one ability/unit abusable by accident.

    UPDATES AND BATTLES

    again. scrap the battle phase. what will peacefull people do during the combat phase?.... loose interest.


    REALY glad to have you back around here.
     
  11. uknemesis

    uknemesis The Nemesis

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    Now updated.

    UKNemesis
     
  12. RoddyVR

    RoddyVR Veteran Board NESer

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    1 map. i may have an old bitmap of the europe map. will have to look on monday though cause most likely its a file on my work computer.

    2. terrain vs income. nice. like the "better but worse too" thing. lol.
    3. trade. not too strong. but why does the "betrayed" party get his gold back too?

    4. trade. like the "break it and gain" thing, but why does the trade partner get their investment back too? the way you have it the one who got "backstabbed" doesnt actualy lose anything at all. so what you're incurriging here is "hidden banking" as apposed to backstabbing/betrayal. i'd suggest that the one that didnt "break" the trade route dont get anything (and feels angry at his "partner") and put in provisions that if both partners break at same time, they get half the gold back or something( by paying a fine next turn i'd say) cause otherwise two close allies can abuse this system to make armies bigger then their enemies expected, but not actualy loose anything for it (by reestablishing trade route next turn).

    4. fortifications. i like. maybe tone the cost down by one on all of em. seems a bit expensive. but not by too much. so maybe leave as is.

    5. science. good choice. ignorance is bliss. lol.

    6. pop and loyalty. nice. creative and i dont see any pitfalls. so i like.

    7. loyalty "changes". bribing my own citizens, while making them happier, wont make them loyal. i dont like this much. plus i think people will just pay one more gold for a unit to make it out of fanatic men way too often. make it raise naturaly somehow.
    when i take over a hostile land, its fanatics become distabalizing forces. that makes sence (old fanatics become questionables).
    but the old lazy bums who would have betrayed the old government for a dime, dont neccesseraly become fanatics in the name of the new regime.
    i could suggest keeping track of the citizens in a territory that are fanatic to a specific nation (if you can do that), and they are questionables for all other nations.
    of just make a newly taken over territory all loyal and questionalbe and force us to EARN the fanatics.

    8. elite units. so an elite is about 2.5 times better then normal. seems fine to me. hope i dont gotta face a single elite with 5 greens. cause the greens will lose. only downside to this thing is that if a nation is "steamrolling" someone (ie just going through the process of conquering without any fear of loosing) then this makes it even easier. as they'll have more units that survive, and grow experienced, while the nation getting steamrolled will be getting crushed faster and faster as its units become more and more green from loosing all the time.

    9. units. nice. like the "bonus" for the mountain born troops. makes mountains worth a bit more with their cheap ass income. like the bonuses and the repair thing should be fun. "to fix or not to fix, that is the question. again."

    10. terrain forts and cannons. lots of bonuses to keep track of, but if you manage it, then this is great. like the capturing cannons thing. will keep people from sending one army out with a crapload of cannons.

    11. upkeep. i'd suggest free upkeep for first unit or two from every province then pay.

    11. water move. there's no such thing as "standard water rules" they've been different in every board game so far, including between almost any two of your own games. i would suggest the "slowest possible aproach" of one turn to board a ship. one turn to move the loaded ship, and one turn to disembark onto land again. but you like navies too much for those rules. so for you i'd say make it that army can board OR disembark on its turn, and teh ships movement isnt affected by armies boarding or leaving. a "board, move, disembark in one turn" makes for impossible to safeguard shores and makes places like russia have a very distinct advantage over say italy or britain.

    12. i vote land grab. start with single territory and conquer you "homelands". relieves some of the monotony of "my nations real life lands" and makes for a few early wars over the who "deserves" to own which lands vs who got there first.


    hope this is helpfull.
     
  13. Jason The King

    Jason The King Deity

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    I agree mostly with roddy. Maybe the elite units are little too powerful. And make sure the population is not too complicated, I don't want too much to worry about for one NES ;).

    I also want land grab, even tho it doesnt fit with the age, lol. Its better then startign with territories, and it gives way to some diplomacy.
     
  14. uknemesis

    uknemesis The Nemesis

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    Cheers Roddy and Jason, good feedback.

    I will either tone down the experience side, or make them hard to gain, or both. Either way, easy victories over green troops will NOT make you raise to veteran or elite - hard battles fought against almost even odds are the one which will count.

    Fortifications will offer the same kind of benefits as cannon, so trying not too make them too much cheaper. May reduce the cost, but this might encourage too much defence.

    Lol on the trade thing, Roddy you know I'm not the kind of mod to accept cheating like that, they'd suddenly find a band of pirates attack their trade routes and shut them ALL down :D. But I agree in principal to the betrayed party not getting his money back, but need to have some kind of balance, as this would make trading possiby too risky for most people.

    As for the feedback on "buying" loyalty, I was only really considering it to get one Population Unit from Questionable to Loyal, but I think maybe a better way would be just to keep army units stationed there and make it secure, and it would rise naturally. As I said before, Fanatical units will be hard to come by, and I can keep track of which country a Fanatical unit likes, so they will go to Questionable when a province changes, and perhaps even revolt if left without garrison if they outnumber the Loyal. Questionable wouldn't become Fanatical, they'd either remain the same, or some may become Loyal due to a wish for change, at my discretion.

    I can keep track of bonuses, don't worry lol, and I will start with land grab.

    Finally, as for water, I'll stick with my old the fleet can move, the army can move. But the army's move is either embarking or disembarking, not both. This makes sea invasions hard to stop if you're REALLY unprepared, but does give you some warning. Making it take 3 turns rather than 2 would make sea invasions too slow to be viable in my opinion - and yes I've got a soft spot for the sea lol.

    And if you could find the map, that would be amazing lol.

    Cheers

    UKNemesis
     
  15. RoddyVR

    RoddyVR Veteran Board NESer

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    here's the one i used in Rnes5. which is a ripoff of your old one. some territories might have been changed a little.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1694697&postcount=2

    its a gif file, which i've found to be just as clean as bitmaps but considerably smaller.

    wont let me attach the file again, so just a link to the game post.

    actualy just found that the UKnes3 thread still has the old map in it. troq made some proposal at around post 50 which includes the whole map. his was an attachment instead of the uploads you used to do so its still there.

    i guess i've changed more things on the map then i thought (britain and scandanavia are vastly remapped).
    anyway, this should give you a good file to go from if you need/want to make any changes.
     

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