Discussion: Unique Epics

[ozqar]

Considering 'Aztec' and 'Mexico' are listed as different civs, the Aztecs should definitely stick with the Cantares. We can include the Huei one as Mexico's national epic. Any thoughts on what should be Mexico's heroic epic?

Lol, unfortunately not... maybe a revolutionary song? @Genghis Khaiser do you have any thoughts on this?

But I wouldn't choose the Huei for modern Mexico, at all. It's written in Nahuatl and representative of the colonial times (so it could apply to the Aztecs), but it's not characteristic of modern Mexico.

It's not clear from the wiki that the Bardo Thodol had a significant cultural impact on Tibet, or would be considered the epitome of Tibetan culture. It's not even clear it's the most significant product of Nyingma, let alone Tibetan Buddhism.

I simply had to laugh a lot about that sentence. As far as I know, it's the best-known Tibetan literary piece outside of Tibet, and I went with that as criteria, but I hear you.

If we want to stick with a distinctive cultural product from the period when France was defining its identity and culture, then Romance of the Rose is a strong candidate. OTOH, it's pretty obscure nowadays, so something more like Les Miserables (defining the post-revolutionary identity) or another work by Hugo (or for that matter Dumas) might suit instead.

Chanson de Roldan is much more famous (I'd never heard of this Romance of the Rose), which I think should factor in a bit in the decision. Something by Dumas would nice for the national one, especially because then you cover two very distinct periods of French literature.

Les Misérables is a good choice for the French national epic, with La Chanson de Roland as the heroic epic. In my opinion it's nice if both epics come from different periods (rather than both being medieval for instance).

Oh, noticed he wrote basically the same as I just wrote. +1 then.

The Popop Vuh should be one for sure. The Chilam Balam seems to have been written after Spanish colonization; perhaps either the Rabinal Achí (a play that is still performed every year in Guatemala) or the Título de Totonicapán would be good choices instead.

I know the Chilam Balam was written afterwards, but that doesn't mean the content itself is from the colonial times (in fact, all mesoamerican literature will be written during the colonial times, simply because that's when the Latin script appeared in the region). The Chilam is quite famous (after the Popol Vuh; I'd never heard about either of the other ones) and it represents a different Mayan region and ethnic group (Guatemala and Yucatan), so I took that as main reasons.[/QUOTE]

 

[Steb]

Other more or less obvious ideas (mostly directly sourced from Wikipedia):

China should probably have two of the Four Great Classical Novels, but I'm not sure which. Water Margin seems to be more military themed than the rest, so it could be the heroic epic.

Japan: The Tale of Genji (national) and The Tale of the Heike (heroic).

Byzantium: Digenes Akritas (heroic)

Colombia: definitely One Hundred Years of Solitude for the national epic

Germany and Holy Rome: not sure if they should share their epics or each have their own, in which case Prussia/Germany should probably only have more modern texts. The Nibelungenlied sounds appropriate as a medieval heroic epic.

Arabia: One Thousand and One Nights (national)

Russia: War and Peace (national) and The Tale of Igor's Campaign (heroic)

Egypt: Story of Sinuhe (heroic). There are many other candidates for the national epic on the Ancient Egyptian Literature wikipedia page.

Some civs have no written records: Harappa, Polynesia, the Inca. I suppose it's okay that in some cases there won't be anything. Harappa could use the same as India's. For the others, there might be oral tradition tales or colonial chronicles.

I know the Chilam Balam was written afterwards, but that doesn't mean the content itself is from the colonial times (in fact, all mesoamerican literature will be written during the colonial times, simply because that's when the Latin script appeared in the region). The Chilam is quite famous (after the Popol Vuh; I'd never heard about either of the other ones) and it represents a different Mayan region and ethnic group (Guatemala and Yucatan), so I took that as main reasons.

Agreed.

 

[DC123456789]

China should probably have two of the Four Great Classical Novels, but I'm not sure which. Water Margin seems to be more military themed than the rest, so it could be the heroic epic.

China's National Epic definitely has to be Romance of the Three Kingdoms, I think.

Also I'll note that I think that La Chanson de Roland is almost always known by its English translation, The Song of Roland.

 

[Leoreth]

Some thoughts on standards: I think the English translation should be used if it is commonly used at all, so Song of Roland and Romance of the Three Kingdoms but Bhagavad Gita etc.

Also, from an implementation point of view the best thing to do is to give everyone the generic names first ("Compose Heoric Epic") and then overwrite those with specific names as they are gradually added. It's alright if some civs never have a flavour name for them then. For technical reasons it would also be easiest to leave the generic name for the button in any case, and only show a splash screen with the specific name if one exists.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

England
National Epic: Henry V
Quote:
"Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this sun of York;
And all the clouds that lour'd upon our house
In the deep bosom of the ocean buried."

Heroic Epic: Beowulf
Quote:
"Quickly, the dragon came at him, encouraged
As Beowulf fell back; its breath flared,
And he suffered, wrapped around in swirling Flames"

In regards to King Arthur literature, if King Arthur is based on a real historical figure, it was likely a Romano-British King who fought against the English. So in my humble opinion not the best option for an English heroic epic!

 

[Edmund Ironside]

America
National Epic: Star Spangled Banner
Quote:
"And the rockets' red glare
The bombs bursting in air
Gave proof through the night
That our flag was still there"

Heroic Epic: The Simpsons
Quote:
"Weaseling out of things is important to learn.
It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel." ~Homer Simpson

 

[TJDowling]

This is a good idea I think! Less internationally known than Anne of Green Gables, sure, but I don't think international fame should be that strong of a criterion. And we already have a ready quote, the one that used to be on the $5 bill: "The winters of my childhood were long, long seasons. We lived in three places – the school, the church and the skating rink – but our real life was on the skating rink." I'm not sure if there'd be copyright issues but there are nice pictures from the original book we could use.

I know Anne of Green Gables is already on the list but I'm going to really push for "The Hockey Sweater" if others (particularly Canadians) don't object. Yeah, I don't see why the epic must be world famous necessarily, particularly since it falls under the National category. And the quotation Steb suggested is perfect. Most Canadians will recognize it instantly and be filled with a sense of pride and nostalgia. The story is uniquely Canadian and speaks to our culture and history both French and English while marking a sufficient contrast to the Heroic Epic. Whereas I would never recognize a quotation from Anne of Green Gables.

I'm sorry about how much space Canada has taken up in this discussion. Such is the nature of deciding National Epics for humble nations.

 

[soul-breathing]

Other more or less obvious ideas (mostly directly sourced from Wikipedia):

China should probably have two of the Four Great Classical Novels, but I'm not sure which. Water Margin seems to be more military themed than the rest, so it could be the heroic epic.

China's National Epic definitely has to be Romance of the Three Kingdoms, I think.

Also I'll note that I think that La Chanson de Roland is almost always known by its English translation, The Song of Roland.

As a Chinese, I'd like to say neither Water Margin nor Three Kingdoms are the best choice to be the national epic of China. Generally they are novels, not something represent the spirit of the Chinese Nation.

For China, my suggestion is:
National Epic: The Four Books and The Five Classics(or Confucian Classics for short, 四书五经 in Chinese)
It contains The Great Learning(大学), The Doctrine of the Mean(中庸), The Confucian Analects(论语), and The Works of Mencius(孟子), They are Four Books; The Book of Songs(诗), The Book of History(书), The Book of Changes(易, also I Ching in English), The Book of Rites(礼) and The Spring and Autumn Annals(春秋).
In Ancient China, every scholar had to read The Four Books and The Five Classics. Also it remains an important part of Chinese culture nowadays.
Quote:
"Learning without thinking is useless, but thinking without learning is perilous.----Confucius"
学而不思则罔，思而不学则殆。

Spoiler :

Heroic Epic: Sun Tzu's art of war(孙子兵法)(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War)
Quote:
"War is of vital importance to the State.
It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin.
Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.----Sun Tzu"
兵者，国之大事，死生之地，存亡之道，不可不察也

Spoiler :

 

[soul-breathing]

Also a suggestion For Tibet, Epic of King Gesar, But I'm not sure either it is a Heroic Epic or a National Epic.
Epic of King Gesar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_King_Gesar

Spoiler :

 

[Enyavar]

Polish heroic: Wojna Chocimska?
Polish national: The seasons(representing Lithuania)
Holy Rome heroic :Ring of the Nibelungen, sure.
Austrian national: The castle (Kafka)
Mongols heroic: Epic of Jangar
Mongols national: Secret history of the Mongols
German national: Faust
German heroic: William Tell

 

[Steb]

As a Chinese, I'd like to say neither Water Margin nor Three Kingdoms are the best choice to be the national epic of China. Generally they are novels, not something represent the spirit of the Chinese Nation.

I'm not Chinese and I haven't read any of the important Chinese literature, so I wouldn't consider my opinion as authoritative. But my understanding is that we're looking for literary works. Your suggestions, while certainly of utmost importance in Chinese culture, are philosophical works or treaties on war, and don't fit as well I think. Consider that Confucius or Sun Tzu are not Great Artists, so they wouldn't be able to compose their own works in game.

Austrian national: The castle (Kafka)

The Castle is very dark and depressing, perhaps not the best choice to represent the character of a whole country...

 

[merijn_v1]

Some brainstorming about the bonus of the Heroic Epic:

Upon completion, one UU with, let's say, 20 XP spawns. Or multiple UU but without the XP.
I think the latter is better, because XP is not valuable for non-combat UU. Maybe the amount should scale with the current era.

To avoid being able to build the UU too early, the Heroic Epic is only available if you have the techs for the UU. (I think the player.canTrain() function is suitable for this) If a civ has multiple UU, you get to choose between all available UU. Naval UU are only avaible in coastal cities of course.

 

[Publicola]

I know Anne of Green Gables is already on the list but I'm going to really push for "The Hockey Sweater" if others (particularly Canadians) don't object. Yeah, I don't see why the epic must be world famous necessarily, particularly since it falls under the National category. And the quotation Steb suggested is perfect. Most Canadians will recognize it instantly and be filled with a sense of pride and nostalgia. The story is uniquely Canadian and speaks to our culture and history both French and English while marking a sufficient contrast to the Heroic Epic. Whereas I would never recognize a quotation from Anne of Green Gables.

I have no real opinion either way, but I have noticed that most of the actual Canadians in this thread seem a lot more enthusiastic about 'The Hockey Sweater'. If there are no objections, I'm going to change the Canadian national epic to that, with Steb's quote. (Any suggestions for a background image?)

Polish heroic: Wojna Chocimska?
Polish national: The seasons(representing Lithuania)

Not familiar with Poland -- I'll look them up, but can you give a brief description?

Holy Rome heroic :Ring of the Nibelungen, sure.

The original myth should apply to 'Holy Rome', though I was thinking that the Wagnerian 'Ring' cycle should be used for the Prussian/Germany epic.

German national: Faust
German heroic: William Tell

I do love William Tell, but my impression is that it's far more relevent to the Swiss than the Germans generally speaking.

I'm not Chinese and I haven't read any of the important Chinese literature, so I wouldn't consider my opinion as authoritative. But my understanding is that we're looking for literary works. Your suggestions, while certainly of utmost importance in Chinese culture, are philosophical works or treaties on war, and don't fit as well I think.

What he said. IANA native of China, but the Four Great Novels (and the 'Romance of the Three Kingdoms' in particular) strike me as a lot more representative of Chinese culture (especially the mythos) than the philosophical works you list. The Art of War might be acceptable as a heroic epic, but I'd like to hear others' feedback first.
'Epics' don't have to be solely narrative, but it sure helps, since a 'national epic' must by definition tell a story that uniquely identifies a nation or ethnic group or civilization.

 

[Publicola]

In regards to King Arthur literature, if King Arthur is based on a real historical figure, it was likely a Romano-British King who fought against the English. So in my humble opinion not the best option for an English heroic epic!

...Yeah, no, the legend of King Arthur (the 'once and future king' who will return when England once again has need of him) is absolutely inextricably linked to the English national identity, far more than Robin Hood or even Beowulf. On the other hand, Shakespeare's Henriad, especially Henry V, is just as definitive a statement of English identity, and it would be fundamentally weird to not include any of Shakespeare's plays in the list of English epics....

America
National Epic: Star Spangled Banner

Finding an epic for America (let alone two) is tough, and the Star Bangled Banner certainly has cultural significance, but I'm not sure we should include national anthems like that. The wiki lists a number of different poems as 'national epic' candidates for the U.S., including Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass, but I'm especially interested in Longfellow's 'Song of Hiawatha'. Anyone familiar with it and its cultural impact?

Alternately, a more promising option might be the Columbiad, which was conceived and written specifically to be America's national epic, but fell out of favor due to its length and 'turgidness'. OTOH, it was based on an earlier work, The Vision of Columbus by the same author, which was remarkably popular during its years of publication (its popularity is why the Columbiad was so successful later on).

Any other ideas here? Mark Twain's work might qualify as well: Huckleberry Finn is obviously the most famous (and the better work), though Tom Sawyer might be considered more representative of American culture....

 

[DC123456789]

...Yeah, no, the legend of King Arthur (the 'once and future king' who will return when England once again has need of him) is absolutely inextricably linked to the English national identity, far more than Robin Hood or even Beowulf. On the other hand, Shakespeare's Henriad, especially Henry V, is just as definitive a statement of English identity, and it would be fundamentally weird to not include any of Shakespeare's plays in the list of English epics....

Beowulf isn't really that suitable as an English Epic in any case since it's not set in England or about English characters; they're Norse through and through. Although might it make more sense to have Henry V as the National Epic and Le Morte d'Arthur as the Heroic Epic?

 

[trevor]

...Yeah, no, the legend of King Arthur (the 'once and future king' who will return when England once again has need of him) is absolutely inextricably linked to the English national identity, far more than Robin Hood or even Beowulf. On the other hand, Shakespeare's Henriad, especially Henry V, is just as definitive a statement of English identity, and it would be fundamentally weird to not include any of Shakespeare's plays in the list of English epics....


Finding an epic for America (let alone two) is tough, and the Star Bangled Banner certainly has cultural significance, but I'm not sure we should include national anthems like that. The wiki lists a number of different poems as 'national epic' candidates for the U.S., including Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass, but I'm especially interested in Longfellow's 'Song of Hiawatha'. Anyone familiar with it and its cultural impact?

Alternately, a more promising option might be the Columbiad, which was conceived and written specifically to be America's national epic, but fell out of favor due to its length and 'turgidness'. OTOH, it was based on an earlier work, The Vision of Columbus by the same author, which was remarkably popular during its years of publication (its popularity is why the Columbiad was so successful later on).

Any other ideas here? Mark Twain's work might qualify as well: Huckleberry Finn is obviously the most famous (and the better work), though Tom Sawyer might be considered more representative of American culture....

I think for a US epic it'd be best to look outside the box a bit; why not a more recent book or, for that matter, movie? I see no reason why a book like The Grapes of Wrath or films like Star Wars or The Godfather shouldn't be considered national epics. Likewise, why not the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" as a heroic epic?

 

[Orbii]

I have no real opinion either way, but I have noticed that most of the actual Canadians in this thread seem a lot more enthusiastic about 'The Hockey Sweater'. If there are no objections, I'm going to change the Canadian national epic to that, with Steb's quote. (Any suggestions for a background image?)

Just to have a contrary opinion, I'll throw in that my preference is still to Anne of Green Gables, as this thread is honestly the first time I've ever heard of The Hockey Sweater by name. That may speak more to me than to what it means to Canada, but just wanted to add this (likely uncultured) Canadian's opinion.

To be clear, I have no objections to it being changed to The Hockey Sweater, and all of the arguments in favour of Anne of Green Gables have already been stated.

I think for a US epic it'd be best to look outside the box a bit; why not a more recent book or, for that matter, movie? I see no reason why a book like The Grapes of Wrath or films like Star Wars or The Godfather shouldn't be considered national epics. Likewise, why not the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" as a heroic epic?

I definitely thought the same for the US. Even old Disney stuff could be said to be more representative of a great cultural product of the US. However, something from Mark Twain or one of the other famed American authors could also work for the National Epic.

As for the Heroic Epic, I also came up blank on what could best be used. Battle Hymn of the Republic is a pretty solid suggestion though.

 

[Publicola]

On an unrelated note, I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on Rome's two epics. Virgil's Aeneid is the obvious choice, but I'm not sure if it should be the 'national epic' (it describes the founding of the nation of Rome) or 'heroic epic' (it focuses entirely on the life of the heroic warrior Aeneas). If we classify the Aeneid as 'national epic', one option to fill in as 'heroic' would be Statius Thebiad. Alternately, if Virgil is 'heroic', then a contender for 'national epic' might be Ovid's Metamorphoses, given its focus on mythology and cosmology from the creation of the world to the rise of Augustus Caesar. I remember someone suggested Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars, but I wasn't sure if that would work, given that it is a work of history. (It'd almost feel like including Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian Wars as the heroic epic for Greece...). Thoughts?

Although might it make more sense to have Henry V as the National Epic and Le Morte d'Arthur as the Heroic Epic?

Given the play's setting (the Hundred Years War) and its most famous passage (the St. Crispan's Day Speech before the Battle of Agincourt), I figured Henry V fit much better as a heroic epic. Le Morte d'Arthur is about kings and knights, but its main theme centers around the ideals of chivalry and courtly love, and how those are personified in King Arthur.

I definitely thought the same for the US. Even old Disney stuff could be said to be more representative of a great cultural product of the US. However, something from Mark Twain or one of the other famed American authors could also work for the National Epic.

Hmm, representative works of 'Americana'...

Honestly, I think Last of the Mohicans deserves a place in our list, given how it helped to define the American character of 'rugged individualism', especially on the frontier. Alternately, both Uncle Tom's Cabin and To Kill A Mockingbird contributed to the modern identity that focuses more on freedom and civil rights. Either of those could work as well.

As for a heroic epic, I can't believe I hadn't thought of it before, but what do people think of adding Red Badge of Courage to the list?

 

[Edmund Ironside]

I could go with Le Morte d'Arthur & Henry V for England, both seem fair. But then again there is always Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings...

For Germany perhaps something by the Brothers Grimm?

For Ethiopia I would suggest 'The Kebra Nagast' ("The Glory of the Kings"). According to Wikepedia "The Kebra Nagast is not merely a literary work, but it is the repository of Ethiopian national and religious feelings."

An alternative for French heroic could be The Three Musketeers by Alexandre Dumas.

 

[Enyavar]

Not familiar with Poland -- I'll look them up, but can you give a brief description?

I do love William Tell, but my impression is that it's far more relevent to the Swiss than the Germans generally speaking.

I am also not familiar with Poland, but I believe they don't have a readily available, iconic work of literature - well, not in the time they flourish in the game. Unless we count religious texts or scientific works written in latin.
Assigning them a 19th or 20th century epos (even historical pieces) doesn't seem right I think. Polish players may correct me here and I won't argue about it.

Wojna Chocimska is a contemporary poem about the Battle of Khotyn (1621). I take back my suggestion of The seasons (1765 poem by Donelaitis), that is desperately reaching.

About William Tell: Yes, that's Switzerland, but the author was German, never even visited the country, and the works has played an important role several times whenever people fought against oppression, not only in Switzerland. Also, we don't have a swiss civ, not even the slightest mention of them so far.

Goethe (Faust) and Schiller (Tell) are widely regarded as Germany's most important poets in the 18/19th century. Wagner was not famous for his texts, and I think the Nibelung myth doesn't need to be referenced twice, but it IS really fitting for Holy Rome.

About the Holy Rome national epic, I have racked my brain and didn't find anything suitable. It's just like with Poland, there isn't really a pan-german epos in medieval times, and Holy Rome wasn't even a nation. Unlike Austria, whose (in my opinion) most famous author is Kafka. But Kafka wasn't a nationalist writer, either, so maybe there are better suggestions elsewhere.