Discussion: Unique Epics

TJDowling · Jan 18, 2019

Orbii said:
I definitely thought the same for the US. Even old Disney stuff could be said to be more representative of a great cultural product of the US. However, something from Mark Twain or one of the other famed American authors could also work for the National Epic.

As for the Heroic Epic, I also came up blank on what could best be used. Battle Hymn of the Republic is a pretty solid suggestion though.

Avengers.

ozqar · Jan 18, 2019

For the suggestions you haven't included in the initial table, is that because you're not convinced yet (and thus, we should have further discussion on the topic?) or just because you haven't gotten to it yet?

(Edit: Or maybe you could simply add several suggestions to the table and format them differently once there is broad consensus, so that we don't miss ideas suggested throughout the thread)

Also, having both the Nibelungenlied and the Ring of the Nibelungs for Germany and the HRE seems a bit uncreative. We should choose only one of those two! I suggest to rename the Tibetan book of the dead to the actual name (see earlier my post) since you also have the Egyptian book of the dead.

Jarlaxe Baenre · Jan 18, 2019

Orbii said:
Just to have a contrary opinion, I'll throw in that my preference is still to Anne of Green Gables, as this thread is honestly the first time I've ever heard of The Hockey Sweater by name. That may speak more to me than to what it means to Canada, but just wanted to add this (likely uncultured) Canadian's opinion.

To be clear, I have no objections to it being changed to The Hockey Sweater, and all of the arguments in favour of Anne of Green Gables have already been stated.

I read it in school, but hadn't thought about it until this thread.

I don't have a suggestion, but I don't really like the idea of The Hockey Sweater being the one chosen. TJDowling mentioned "pride and nostalgia" and it working for both Anglophones and Francophones. I felt a bit of nostalgia, but that's just because the mention of it brought me back.

Just mentioning this because a point raised in its favour was that there had been no objections.

freethink · Jan 18, 2019

Rome's National Epic: On the Civil War
Quote:
Then, then, with all the world
Beneath thee, Rome, if for nefarious war
Such be thy passion, turn upon thyself:
Not yet was wanting for thy sword a foe.
That crumbled houses and half-ruined homes
Now mark our cities; that the ancient streets
Scarce hear the footfall of the passer-by
Image:
https://scodpub.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/roman-robot-1.jpg

For the Aneid:
Text:
And haughty Juno's unrelenting hate,
Expell'd and exil'd, left the Trojan shore.
Long labors, both by sea and land, he bore,
And in the doubtful war, before he won
The Latian realm, and built the destin'd town;
His banish'd gods restor'd to rites divine,
Image:
http://www.italymagazine.com/sites/...y/gallery/tumblr_mcy8fb19kq1rui49ao1_1280.jpg

freethink · Jan 18, 2019

UNITED STATES
Heroic Epic: A farewell to arms
Quote:
The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places.
But those that will not break it kills.
It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.
If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry.
Image: http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/022/8/1/a_farewell_to_arms_by_brittykittycoco-d5sdsfr.jpg

National Epic: Last of the Mohicans
Quote:
“Chingachgook grasped the hand that, in the warmth of feeling, the scout had stretched across the fresh earth, and in that attitude of friendship these intrepid woodsmen bowed their heads together, while scalding tears fell to their feet, watering the grave of Uncas like drops of falling rain.”
Image: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Benjamin_west_Death_wolfe_noble_savage.jpg

freethink · Jan 18, 2019

THAILAND
Heroic Epic: Tale of Khun Chang Khun Phaen
Quote:
The mass of spirits were visible only to Khun Phaen, not to the soldiers and people packed around.
He enchanted rice and hurled it. In a flash of flame, the mantra dummies turned into people, complete with various weapons in hand.
The dummies prostrated before Khun Phaen who stood, legs apart, holding Skystorm, and pronounced a mantra ordering the spirits
to serve as a vanguard army. “
You will attack and drive away the spirits of the forest.
Image: https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/...e-photography-alex-kovacheva-fb5__700-png.jpg

National Epic: Thao Hung

Prepare Yourself to receive my words
From this moment you are prince and ruler.

Do not speak strange words, or think desirous thoughts
Be Courageous in governing this muaing in the place of the King

Through Good and Bad guard carefully
Do not be lax or speak the braggart's petty sarcasm

Nurture your relatives, friends, sick people and your father's brothers remember well
Take care of the poor in humble dwellings, for that is good

Like a rock wall barrier surrounding precious jade.

Image: https://www.asisbiz.com/Thailand/Gr...leaf-Buddhist-artwork-Bangkok-Thailand-23.jpg

Enyavar · Jan 18, 2019

Hey, another thought.

How do you expect Egypt, Babylon or Greece to ever build their epics? Rome and Carthage also have other things to focus on instead of an artist.

For all civs in the ancient times, artist-powered epics are post-UHV stuff, unless there are other conditions to get them. And anyway, there is other stuff we need great persons for. Artists can be settled, can build a museum and can culturebomb; that's plenty I think.

My suggestion is for the national epic to the fulfillment of the second UHV (splash screen, notification, golden age). No other fancy effect needed.

And the heroic epic could be just like in vanilla: a project with a high prerequisite, like having a level-six combat unit, then needing to build a small project in two cities, and for a small cultural reward: +2 culture for all barracks, or whatever.

Edit: Or if we really want civ-specific tasks and rewards,

Spoiler :

freethink · Jan 18, 2019

Enyavar said:
Hey, another thought.

How do you expect Egypt, Babylon or Greece to ever build their epics? Rome and Carthage also have other things to focus on instead of an artist.

For all civs in the ancient times, artist-powered epics are post-UHV stuff, unless there are other conditions to get them. And anyway, there is other stuff we need great persons for. Artists can be settled, can build a museum and can culturebomb; that's plenty I think.

My suggestion is for the national epic to the fulfillment of the second UHV (splash screen, notification, golden age). No other fancy effect needed.

And the heroic epic could be just like in vanilla: a project with a high prerequisite, like having a level-six combat unit, then needing to build a small project in two cities, and for a small cultural reward: +2 culture for all barracks, or whatever.

I personally still like having the option of it coming from artists, especially in the late game.
How about the epic having different effects in every era?

freethink · Jan 18, 2019

ENGLAND
Heroic Epic:
They have seen my strength for themselves, have watched me rise from the darkness of war, dripping with my enemies' blood.
I drove five great giants into chains, chased all of that race from the earth.
I swam in the blackness of night, hunting monsters out of the ocean, and killing them one by one; death was my errand and the fate they had earned.
Now Grendel and I are called together, and I've come.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Sutton_Hoo_replica_(face).jpg

Steb · Jan 18, 2019

A few more suggestions:

Turks: Epic of Koroghlu (heroic) and Book of Dede Korkut (national)

Arabia: The Romance of Antar (heroic). There's no wikipedia article on the text, but apparently the life of the poet-knight Antar or Antarah became an important poetic saga whose "importance has been compared with English literature's Arthurian romances."

Khmer: Reamker (national)

Egypt: despite its importance, I'm not sure the Book of the Dead should be the national epic since it's a religious/funerary text, especially since there exist many other examples of ancient Egyptian poetic and narrative texts. I don't know which one would be best though. Maybe The Eloquent Peasant?

Genghis Khaiser · Jan 18, 2019

ozqar said:
Lol, unfortunately not... maybe a revolutionary song? @Genghis Khaiser do you have any thoughts on this?

It's a bit of a shame to admit this but I'm not so sure. My ideas:

Aztecs:
-National: A known story is the legend of Popocatepetl and Iztaccihuatl. Another one could be a poem by Netzahualcoyotl or the myth of the foundation of Tenochtitlan.
-Heroic: According to my research, Yaocuicatl is the Nahuatl name for Aztec war songs.

Mexico:
-National: Pedro Páramo by Juan Rulfo.
-Heroic: Mexicanos al grito de guerra (The national anthem), Adelita (A popular Mexican song).

freethink · Jan 19, 2019

NORSE
Poetic Edda:
The venomous serpent | swiftly up
To the boat did Thor, | the bold one, pull;
With his hammer the loathly | hill of the hair
Of the brother of Fenrir | he smote from above.
25. The monsters roared, | and the rocks resounded,
And all the earth | so old was shaken;

Image: http://www.germanicmythology.com/works/IMAGES3/EARLYARTSKOG.jpg

Prose Edda:
“Who has ever wandered through such forests, in a length of many miles, in a boundless expanse, without a path, without a goal, amid their monstrous shadows, their sacred gloom, without being filled with deep reverence for the sublime greatness of Nature above all human agency, without feeling the grandeur of the idea which forms the basis of Vidar’s essence?”

https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/0a/25/9e/fantoft-stave-church.jpg

Take another look at my Roman entries, and I hope you accept

.

freethink · Jan 20, 2019

CHINA
HEROIC EPIC: Water Margin
QUOTE: There are now 108 of us, which is the number ordained by Heaven and pleasing to the human mind.
From this day on, if any of us holds unrighteous thought and harms our goal, pray, Heaven and earth scourge him, gods destroy him, so that he would never again be reincarnated in human form and remain forever buried in the pit.
We wish to keep righteousness and loyalty in our hearts together and serve the country together, and vow to enforce Dao on Heaven’s behalf, defend our borders, and secure our people’s safety
IMAGE:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Shuihu3.PNG/387px-Shuihu3.PNG

NATIONAL EPIC: THREE KINGDOMS
QUOTE: Unity succeeds division and division follows unity. One is bound to be replaced by the other after a long span of time. This is the way with things in the world.
IMAGE: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...5/Three_Brothers.jpg/320px-Three_Brothers.jpg

Publicola · Jan 20, 2019

Okay, question. For the Polynesian epics, I looked up a few wiki entries, and found a candidate for national epic: Sina and the Eel, a Samoan legend about the first coconut tree. I also have a very strong feeling that Polynesia's heroic epic absolutely must be about the folkhero/demigod Maui. The only problem, I am not able to find a single text or discrete (named) legend about Maui that would suffice. Does anyone have any knowledge in this area, or know the name of specific legends that we could use?

freethink · Jan 20, 2019

Publicola said:
Okay, question. For the Polynesian epics, I looked up a few wiki entries, and found a candidate for national epic: Sina and the Eel, a Samoan legend about the first coconut tree. I also have a very strong feeling that Polynesia's heroic epic absolutely must be about the folkhero/demigod Maui. The only problem, I am not able to find a single text or discrete (named) legend about Maui that would suffice. Does anyone have any knowledge in this area, or know the name of specific legends that we could use?

I was thinking about the story you mentioned, I was also thinking about a story about a certain sailor that reached the southern ocean in prehistoric times. Ill find the name of it

I couldnt find a written story about the sailor but I did find these stories on Maori Mythology
http://eng.mataurangamaori.tki.org....ry-Stories/How-Maui-brought-fire-to-the-world

Leoreth · Jan 20, 2019

What can I say except you're welcome

freethink · Jan 20, 2019

MONGOLS
NATIONAL EPIC: SECRET HISTORY OF THE MONGOLS
QUOTE: "Temujin, in the midst of the crowd, went forward running in haste was crying, saying "Borete! Borete!" encountering her. Borte Ujin was fleeing in haste. Hearing and recognizing the voice of Temujin, being alighted from the cart, coming running to him. Borte Ujin and Qoyacin in the night seized the reigns and tether of Temujin. There was moonlight. When Temujin looked, recognizing the voice of Borte they threw themselves upon each other in embracing each other."
PICTURE: http://amgalant.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Wenji-herself.jpg

HEROIC EPIC: THE GREAT EPIC CYCLE OF JANGAR
QUOTE:
The upcoming 99 years [things] He knows by forecast
The past 99 years [things]
He knows by retrospect.
People who have mouths.
Dare not to gossip [about him]
Dare not to talk [about him]
Utalhula When they cut him
He turns into red rock
When they cleave him
He turns into white rock

Picture:https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.ZepuaR0aIGXk0s140_LuaAHaGm&pid=Api&w=539&h=480&rs=1&p=0

freethink · Jan 20, 2019

TURKIC PEOPLE
HEROIC EPIC:
Epic of Koroghlu
QUOTE:
Battalion by battalion, the enemy has come and lined up,
The letters of dark fate are written on our foreheads.
Valor has been lost whence guns were invented
The curved blade in its holster shall rust.

IMAGE: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yuZGN9LqB1U/maxresdefault.jpg

NATIONAL EPIC:
QUOTE:
They grappled with one another like two trained wrestlers.
Beyrek tried to knock the girl to the ground, while she sought to make Beyrek lose his balance and fall.
Exhausted, Beyrek thought: "If I am beaten by this girl, they will talk my head off and say awful things to my face in the land of the Inner Oghuz."
He gathered his strength and finally threw the girl.
He first tripped her up and caught her by the breast while she struggled to free herself.
Then Beyrek took the girl by her narrow waist and threw her down again, making her fall flat on her back.
Beyrek kissed the girl three times and bit her once.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/OttomanHorseArcher.jpg

freethink · Jan 20, 2019

NETHERLANDS
HEROIC EPIC: Diary of a young girl
Quote:
“In spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart.
I simply can’t build up my hopes on a foundation consisting of confusion, misery, and death. I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness,
I hear the ever approaching thunder, which will destroy us too,
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, if I look up into the heavens,
I think that it will all come right, that this cruelty too will end, and that peace and tranquility will return again.”
IMAGE:
http://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/images/anne-frank-16.jpg
NATIONAL EPIC: Fable of the Bees
QUOTE:
Bare Virtue can't make Nations live
In Splendor; they, that would revive
A Golden Age, must be as free,
For Acorns, as for Honesty.

Enyavar · Jan 20, 2019

freethink said:
I personally still like having the option of it coming from artists, especially in the late game.
How about the epic having different effects in every era?

In the late game, I think there is nothing against GA writing the epic. But for early civs, short-lived medieval and renaissance civs (in total around a half of all civs!), I think the epics will not be built - even by human players - unless there are other ways to achieve them. In case of Poland, the HRE or even Mali, I could imagine the "national epics" (as famous liturgic texts instead of a dubious or anachronistic work) coming from Great Prophets instead of Artists. Many if not all early heroic epics could be built by sacrificing a Great General instead.

I think there's little to no point in re-introducing the epics unless they add value or meaning to the gameplay. Having to spend a Great Person on them, when so many civs have really tight constraints and need the Great Persons on rather different things, seems a bad idea to me. For example: Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Carthage, Polynesia, Persia, Ethiopia, Tibet, Moors, Holy Rome, Mali, Dutch, Germany and Argentina are the examples that come to my mind who primarily need their great person output to fulfill the UHV, either directly or indirectly. Romans, Maya, Vikings, Arabs, Congolese have other things to focus on, than running theatres+weavers for artristry. And there is another dozen cases where I think that it really depends on the effect of the epics, whether they can be used or not.
In these cases, you can either focus on the UHV; or on the epic.

So here I come with yet another idea on the mechanic: Make them a surprise bonus, just like other events already in the game.
For each civilization there is a list of percentages (depending on the ages and the type of great person) that a great person, if expended in any way, just gives an epic to the civilzation in question. Of course, this mechanic would really just add a little bonus, but the effect could then be used to make each civilization a little bit more unique. I'm thinking of unique global effects on a civs buildings. They wouldn't require different programming for each civilization, once the basic mechanic is implemented.

Spoiler Just for example :

These percentages would have to be balanced in a way that there is a high chance of getting these epics to pop up during your game... but not in a way that you can rely on them or plan for them to be available.

[Edit: fixed the polish literature links]

Discussion: Unique Epics

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Blue Period

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