Discussion: Unique Epics

[freethink]

I

In the late game, I think there is nothing against GA writing the epic. But for early civs, short-lived medieval and renaissance civs (in total around a half of all civs!), I think the epics will not be built - even by human players - unless there are other ways to achieve them. In case of Poland, the HRE or even Mali, I could imagine the "national epics" (as famous liturgic texts instead of a dubious or anachronistic work) coming from Great Prophets instead of Artists. Many if not all early heroic epics could be built by sacrificing a Great General instead.

I think there's little to no point in re-introducing the epics unless they add value or meaning to the gameplay. Having to spend a Great Person on them, when so many civs have really tight constraints and need the Great Persons on rather different things, seems a bad idea to me. For example: Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Carthage, Polynesia, Persia, Ethiopia, Tibet, Moors, Holy Rome, Mali, Dutch, Germany and Argentina are the examples that come to my mind who primarily need their great person output to fulfill the UHV, either directly or indirectly. Romans, Maya, Vikings, Arabs, Congolese have other things to focus on, than running theatres+weavers for artristry. And there is another dozen cases where I think that it really depends on the effect of the epics, whether they can be used or not.
In these cases, you can either focus on the UHV; or on the epic.

So here I come with yet another idea on the mechanic: Make them a surprise bonus, just like other events already in the game.
For each civilization there is a list of percentages (depending on the ages and the type of great person) that a great person, if expended in any way, just gives an epic to the civilzation in question. Of course, this mechanic would really just add a little bonus, but the effect could then be used to make each civilization a little bit more unique. I'm thinking of unique global effects on a civs buildings. They wouldn't require different programming for each civilization, once the basic mechanic is implemented.

Spoiler Just for example :

Mongols; The secret history of the mongols (national epic). Probabilty to be randomly written when expending a... GG 0%; GM 0%; GE 0%; GPr 20%; GSc 10%; GSt 40%; GA 30%. Effect: +1 production in stables.
Mongols; Epic of Jangar (heroic epic). Probabilty to be randomly written when expending a... GG 25%; GM 0%; GE 0%; GPr 5%; GSc 5%; GSt 5%; GA 20%. Effect: +2 EXP in stables.

This could also be used for several effects in different eras:
Poland; Bogurodzica (heroic epic). Probabilty to be randomly written when expending a... GG 5%; GM 0%; GE 0%; GPr 30%; GSc 0%; GSt 0%; GA 10%. Only possible to build before entering Renaissance. Effect: +1 commerce in churches (or could that be +2 EXP for new units?)
Poland; Rozmowa Mistrza Polikarpa ze Śmiercią (national epic). Probabilty to be randomly written when expending a... GG 0%; GM 0%; GE 0%; GPr 0%; GSc 10%; GSt 5%; GA 30%. Only possible to build before entering Renaissance. Effect: +1 culture in theatres
Poland; Mikołaja Doświadczyńskiego przypadki (heroic epic). Probabilty to be randomly written when expending a... GG 5%; GM 10%; GE 10%; GPr 0%; GSc 5%; GSt 5%; GA 40%. Renaissance required, only possible to build before entering Industrial Era. Effect: +1 science in barracks
Poland; De republica emendanda (national epic). Probabilty to be randomly written when expending a... GG 0%; GM 10%; GE 10%; GPr 0%; GSc 10%; GSt 25%; GA 5%. Renaissance required, only possible to build before entering Industrial Era. Effect: +2 espionage in sejmik

>>>NOTE, there can be only one epic of one kind at any time. If, for example, a heroic epic was already built; there is either zero possibility of a newer epic; or the older one will be replaced by the newer one.
Also note: The epics I linked above for Poland, are certainly not THE epics of Poland; nor are they polish EPICS. They would rather fulfill the role of contemporary works that could be used to randomly pop up as historical and cultural nods.

Now, when I think about it:
Greece; Odyssey (national epic). Probabilty to be randomly written when expending a... GG 25%; GM 10%; GE 0%; GPr 0%; GSc 0%; GSt 25%; GA 40%. Only possible before researching Ethics. Effect: +1 gold in harbors
Greece; Iliad (heroic epic). Probabilty to be randomly written when expending a... GG 25%; GM 0%; GE 0%; GPr 5%; GSc 0%; GSt 25%; GA 40%. Only possible before researching Generalship or Engineering. Effect: +1 culture in barracks
Greece; Anabasis (heroic epic). Probabilty to be randomly written when expending a... GG 40%; GM 0%; GE 10%; GPr 0%; GSc 10%; GSt 40%; GA 5%. Only possible after researching Generalship or Engineering. Effect: +2 EXP in barracks
Greece; Letters of Paul (national epic). Probabilty to be randomly written when expending a... GG 0%; GM 10%; GE 0; GPr 80%; GSc 0%; GSt 10%; GA 0%. Only possible after researching Ethics. Effect: +1 espionage in religious buildings

These percentages would have to be balanced in a way that there is a high chance of getting these epics to pop up during your game... but not in a way that you can rely on them or plan for them to be available.

[Edit: fixed the polish literature links]

I have no idea if it could be implemented but adding the radom modifiers I think would spice up the game for all civiliations and would enable that all civs might see their epics.

 

[freethink]

PERSIA
HEROIC EPIC: THE MEMOIRS OF ZARIR
They saddled the iron-hoofed horse, which was the horse of Zarir, and Vidarafsh, the magician, rode upon it.
He took that weapon which was operated upon with magic in the hell by the demons through anger and which was impregnated with the poison of the water of sin.
He held it on in his hand and rushed into the battle, and saw how bravely Bastur was fighting.
He could not go to him in the front, so quietly went forward from behind.
Bastur cast a glance and said, "Oh, wicked magician! come in front of my humble self, because I think that I do not know how to make my horse run fast under my thighs and I think that I do not know well to throw the arrow from the quiver.
So come forward in the front of my humble self so that I may destroy thy sweet life as you did that of my father, the brave general Zarir."
And Vidarafsh, the magician, presumptuously proceeded farther and went forward before Bastur, and that black iron-hoofed horse of Zarir, when he heard the loud voice of Bastur, struck his four feet on the ground and raised nine hundred and ninety-nine cries.

 

[Ani Taneen]

Here are some:
Argentina
National: Martín Fierro by José Hernández.
National Quote: This is really hard to translate to English, i will edit later,
National Image: Any gaucho image would suffice to be honest.
Heroic: Facundo: Civilization and Barbarism by Domingo Faustino Sarmiento
Heroic Quote: From these characteristics arises in the life of the Argentine people the reign of brute force, the supremacy of the strongest, the absolute and irresponsible authority of rulers, the administration of justice without formalities or discussion.
Heroic Image: The Death of Facundo Quiroga

Colombia
Heroic Option 1 (Colombia)
Heroic: The Vortex by José Eustasio Rivera
Heroic Image: I'm not sure yet. Maybe a rubber tree being harvested
Heroic Option 2 (Venezuela/Gran Colombia)
Heroic: Doña Bárbara by Rómulo Gallegos
National quote: “Wherever they might be they always remember that the past was a lie, that memory has no return, that every spring gone by could never be recovered, and that the wildest and most tenacious love was an ephemeral truth in the end.”
National image: Since 100 years of solitude is about the cyclical nature of Latin american history, may be simply represented by the painting La República, by Pedro Nel Gómez

Brazil
Heroic: O Uraguai by Basílio da Gama
National: Iracema by José de Alencar (though O Guarani by the same author maybe the better pick, but there is better artwork for Iracema since it is a love story).
If any of you even suggest The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho, I am coming through that screen, The Ring style, and slapping you.

 

[Ani Taneen]

I'm not Chinese and I haven't read any of the important Chinese literature, so I wouldn't consider my opinion as authoritative. But my understanding is that we're looking for literary works. Your suggestions, while certainly of utmost importance in Chinese culture, are philosophical works or treaties on war, and don't fit as well I think. Consider that Confucius or Sun Tzu are not Great Artists, so they wouldn't be able to compose their own works in game.

Here are some:
Argentina
Heroic: Facundo: Civilization and Barbarism by Domingo Faustino Sarmiento
Heroic Quote: From these characteristics arises in the life of the Argentine people the reign of brute force, the supremacy of the strongest, the absolute and irresponsible authority of rulers, the administration of justice without formalities or discussion.
Heroic Image: The Death of Facundo Quiroga

I want to push back against the idea that we should only consider things that a great artist may produce. While I understand that works of pure philosophy or treatise on a subject matter, such as science or politics, while epic, are not what we are looking for; some are categorically descriptive of the nation they represent. For example Domingo Sarmiento is best represented by a Great Statesman, however his treatise on Federalist Facundo Quiroga (which was really about the dictator Juan Manuel de Rosas) is categorical in defining an aspect of Argentine History and self identity that this game has Flanderized into the nation's UP and part of it's UHV's. Yes Sarmiento could not in game produce Facundo, but that epic prose better describes the Argentina of this game and it's history, than the mysteries of Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius by Jorge Luis Broges. And to be honest, to truly understand the Argentina that Borges poems rebelled against, you need to understand Facundo. heck, Hernandez publishes Martin Fierro in part to challenge Sarmiento's Unitarian views. So no Sarmiento can't create his own great work in the game, but then again, what golden age can truly be said to have been brought by a great general?

 

[Publicola]

I've updated the front page with the new suggestions.

NATIONAL EPIC: SECRET HISTORY OF THE MONGOLS
QUOTE: "Temujin, in the midst of the crowd, went forward running in haste was crying, saying "Borete! Borete!" encountering her. Borte Ujin was fleeing in haste. Hearing and recognizing the voice of Temujin, being alighted from the cart, coming running to him. Borte Ujin and Qoyacin in the night seized the reigns and tether of Temujin. There was moonlight. When Temujin looked, recognizing the voice of Borte they threw themselves upon each other in embracing each other."

I really think the Secret History of the Mongols quote should not be a love story. Yes, the story of Temujin and Borte is fine, but it is not at all representative of the Mongol national identity.

TURKIC PEOPLE
...
NATIONAL EPIC:
QUOTE:
They grappled with one another like two trained wrestlers.
Beyrek tried to knock the girl to the ground, while she sought to make Beyrek lose his balance and fall.
Exhausted, Beyrek thought: "If I am beaten by this girl, they will talk my head off and say awful things to my face in the land of the Inner Oghuz."
He gathered his strength and finally threw the girl.
He first tripped her up and caught her by the breast while she struggled to free herself.
Then Beyrek took the girl by her narrow waist and threw her down again, making her fall flat on her back.
Beyrek kissed the girl three times and bit her once.

Likewise. Just... no. Especially given the rape-y vibe I get from that particular snippet.

HEROIC EPIC: Diary of a young girl
Quote:
“In spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart.
I simply can’t build up my hopes on a foundation consisting of confusion, misery, and death. I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness,
I hear the ever approaching thunder, which will destroy us too,
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, if I look up into the heavens,
I think that it will all come right, that this cruelty too will end, and that peace and tranquility will return again.”

Interesting suggestion! However, I'm not sure Diary of Anne Frank quite works as a 'Heroic Epic' -- which is broadly supposed to be about that nation's conduct in battle, inspiring others to fight for their country.

NATIONAL EPIC: Fable of the Bees
QUOTE:
Bare Virtue can't make Nations live
In Splendor; they, that would revive
A Golden Age, must be as free,
For Acorns, as for Honesty.

Likewise, Mandeville's Fable of the Bees is a really clever idea, especially given the 'hard-working Calvinist' connotations, but I suspect there are better works that characterize the Dutch national identity.

PERSIA
HEROIC EPIC: THE MEMOIRS OF ZARIR
They saddled the iron-hoofed horse, which was the horse of Zarir, and Vidarafsh, the magician, rode upon it.
He took that weapon which was operated upon with magic in the hell by the demons through anger and which was impregnated with the poison of the water of sin.
He held it on in his hand and rushed into the battle.

I wasn't able to find an original source for this, and your proposed quote was way too long, so I cut it down to the snippet above.

Argentina
National: Martín Fierro by José Hernández.
National Quote: This is really hard to translate to English, i will edit later,
National Image: Any gaucho image would suffice to be honest.
Heroic: Facundo: Civilization and Barbarism by Domingo Faustino Sarmiento
Heroic Quote: From these characteristics arises in the life of the Argentine people the reign of brute force, the supremacy of the strongest, the absolute and irresponsible authority of rulers, the administration of justice without formalities or discussion.

I know basically nothing of Argentinian history, so unless there are objections I'll stick with your suggestion. However, I'm not convinced the 'heroic quote' really works, especially since it seems to be highly critical of Argentinian culture....

Colombia
Heroic Option 1 (Colombia)
Heroic: The Vortex by José Eustasio Rivera
Heroic Image: I'm not sure yet. Maybe a rubber tree being harvested
Heroic Option 2 (Venezuela/Gran Colombia)
Heroic: Doña Bárbara by Rómulo Gallegos
National quote: “Wherever they might be they always remember that the past was a lie, that memory has no return, that every spring gone by could never be recovered, and that the wildest and most tenacious love was an ephemeral truth in the end.”

Similar uncertainty about the national quote here; is that really characteristic of Colombian identity?


Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[Ani Taneen]

I know basically nothing of Argentinian history, so unless there are objections I'll stick with your suggestion. However, I'm not convinced the 'heroic quote' really works, especially since it seems to be highly critical of Argentinian culture....


Similar uncertainty about the national quote here; is that really characteristic of Colombian identity?
Thanks for the suggestions!

100 years of solitude was picked in part because of its worldwide popularity. For that very reason I fear somebody would have mentioned the alchemist as Brazil's national epic. What made Garcia Marquez so popular outside of Colombia is that he is able to capture the cyclically repetitive nature of Latin American history.

Personally, I wonder if maybe we could use something different. Like song lyrics. For example we can pair the painting of public schools are being killed on the rooftops with lyrics from Juanez's song, a dios le pido,

" For the days that for me remain
and the nights that yet haven't come,
I ask of God.
For the children of my children
and the children of your children,
I ask of God.

That my nation does not shed so much blood
and it lift up my people,
I ask of God.
That my soul does not rest
when it concerns loving you, my love,
I ask of God."

As for Facundo, here is a quote to translate:
"Las razas fuertes exterminan a las débiles, los pueblos civilizados suplantan en la posesión de la tierra a los salvajes. No debieran nuestros escritores insistir sobre la crueldad de los españoles para con los salvajes de América, ahora como entonces, nuestros enemigos de raza, de color, de tendencias, de civilización. Quisiéramos apartar de toda cuestión social americana a los salvajes, por quienes sentimos, sin poderlo remediar, una invencible repugnancia"

Here is a quote from Martin Fierro to translate:
"Y sepan cuantos escuchan
De mis penas el relato,
Que nunca peleo ni mato
Sino por necesidá,
Y que a tanta alversidá
Sólo me arrojó el mal trato

Y atiendan la relación que hace un gaucho perseguido, que padre y marido ha sido empeñoso y diligente, y sin embargo la gente lo tiene por un bandido"

As for the works from Brazil, I honestly haven't read them. Also eu nao fala portugeis. So yea.

 

[ozqar]

I don't think modern pop music (ie, Juanes) should be considered as national epics. That discussion might also apply to La Adelita, with the consideration that, although it's a popular song, it's become a classical.

For the Aztecs, can you please update the table with these previous suggestions: Crónica Mexicayotl (heroic) and Cantares Mexicanos (national). But do keep Popocatepel and Iztacchíhuatl as another option for the national.
Please also remove the Huei Tlamahuiçoltica as an option for Mexico, it's not representative of the country.

 

[freethink]

For

I've updated the front page with the new suggestions.
I really think the Secret History of the Mongols quote should not be a love story. Yes, the story of Temujin and Borte is fine, but it is not at all representative of the Mongol national identity.


Likewise. Just... no. Especially given the rape-y vibe I get from that particular snippet.


Interesting suggestion! However, I'm not sure Diary of Anne Frank quite works as a 'Heroic Epic' -- which is broadly supposed to be about that nation's conduct in battle, inspiring others to fight for their country.


Likewise, Mandeville's Fable of the Bees is a really clever idea, especially given the 'hard-working Calvinist' connotations, but I suspect there are better works that characterize the Dutch national identity.


I wasn't able to find an original source for this, and your proposed quote was way too long, so I cut it down to the snippet above.


I know basically nothing of Argentinian history, so unless there are objections I'll stick with your suggestion. However, I'm not convinced the 'heroic quote' really works, especially since it seems to be highly critical of Argentinian culture....


Similar uncertainty about the national quote here; is that really characteristic of Colombian identity?

Thanks for the suggestions!

For Publica
I appreicate your responses.
All of my suggestions were chosen carefully, I ask that you give the rejected ones additional consideration. I am certainly happy to explain why I made my choices.

First off, let us think about the following,
I do not think every single heroic epic should be a different copy of 'the following sentence
'protagonist A bravely took up the sword/gun' in defense of the sweetest country on earth'

or every national epic quote should be

'Lo to the great king of mighty palaces supported by the sky god'
I am not attacking this kinda story by itself, but to really take into account the differences between these world cultures, different kinds of stories/ideas should be used.

If the point of these quotes is to give sight of into the distinct national heritages of all thirty-some civilizations, we cannot box ourselves into a certain idea of what a symbol of national or heroic pride is. Some human ideas are universal, but others are not. I really would be disappointed for the casual viewer, if all quotations are literally based on one idea of what national identity or heroism is. Especially when we are talking about vast differences between religions, settled/vs. nomadic societies/ agricultural/industrial lifestyles or even differences in gender roles.

In respect to Mongolia, I spent a great deal of time choosing between the love story and a reference to a character being forced to conduct a siege with 'bare fingernails'. Which was interesting because it shows the difficulty Mongols often had with siege warfare.

I choose the love story because it reflects several things

(1). The love story became part of the nation's national mythology and contributed greatly to both the ancient and modern cult of personality around Genghis Khan. Borte herself can be equated to almost being a 'virgin mary' type figure (while obviously not being a virgin of course). But she was a chief source of inspiration for Tenjumin's deeds according to literature.

(2). Its meant to reflect that Mongolia like other nomadic tribal societies had a certain degree more respect for women as opposed to settled civilisations. While it is true that women could be stolen as commodities by warring tribes within one's own tribe a sort of matriarchal system developed as concerned to family management, especially when the fighting men were often absent. There are numerous ancient sources that affirm this claim as Chinese observers remarked to the liberty and assertiveness of 'barbarian' women (which they showed in a negative ligtht)

In regards to the Turkic Quotes.

1. Thanks for including the quote regarding gunpowder warfare

2. From a modern context, perhaps the quote is disturbing to you personally but it reflects the values of nomadic Turkic societies which actually gave women more worth than the settled Arabic regimes which existed close by. What is happening here is basically a ritual where the protagonist is proving his worth as a provider and warrior through martial arts. The quotation does not in any way imply rape and I really must take opposition to that idea. The quotation shows at least, in theory, show that nomadic women could repel or reject their suitor if they desired to. Also if you choose to read this text you will find that this particular moment is really important for establishing the warrior status of the character.

Quotes from Nomadic Societies should at least make a stab to show the life of these people (a focus on self-reliance, perhaps horses, insecurity of life/brutality moving around, earning respect through a personal value, more choices for women, among other things. The choices of women at least in stories could sometimes make or break an outcome *we can affirm that to an extent this was also part of reality as well.

As for the Dutch,

1. The Netherlands is a relatively new country and a modern country at that. Most of the Heroic Epics are going to depict the circumstances of men in war, often more than not ancient war. Take notice of the quotations I used for England and the Norse for example.

But in the Dutch case, Anne Frank is appropriate, the quote shows how civilians endure in modern occupations, as well as self-defense/evasion from the modern forms of ethnic cleansing.

How is this supposed to inspire armed forces you ask?
Because Anne Frank's Diary shows the resistance of civilians even helpless ones in the face of overwhelming odds. Though the Dutch soldiers fought bravely in WWII, the actual struggle for their country as you know was very short. The experience of the Franks show that invasion and occupation can be opposed in many ways, and certainly many would agree that Anne Frank is a hero merely for enduring what she did like many others- the fact that she also wrote her world acclaimed diary in the circumstances adds upon that. If I am trying to find not just the most remarkable but also unique examples of heroism in war in thinking about the more liberal-oriented Netherlands the diary hits the nail.


Why is the Fable of the Bees poem not a good representation of the National Identity? What criteria are you looking for here? The poem comes from the Golden Age of Dutch Literature when they were establishing their independent and Calvinist character as you said yourself. It shows the Dutch emphasis on commerce, productivity, free markets (and the issues that come with free markets). If there is something else that you want that somehow represents the emergence of the United Netherlands I am happy to take part, but I believe in this particular quotation here. All of the National quotes should tell something about their country that sets it apart from the rest. It's certainly not easy to find quotes that convey unique ideas for everyone and of course there will be overlaps but the criteria of what fictional literature makes a national epic is should somewhat be broad and encompassing (no pop songs or anthems of course) but what is important if the ideas they carry.


As for the THE MEMOIRS OF ZARIR I found it here
http://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/zarir/zarir.htm

Thanks for considering all suggestions and for reading this long post
, did you look at my China proposal?

 

[Publicola]

Phoenicia
Heroic
Periplus of Hanno
"In the bay was an island, which contained a lake with another island, inhabited by crude people our interpreters called Gorillae. We pursued but could take none of the males; they all escaped to the top of cliffs, which they mounted with ease, and threw down stones. We took three of the females, but they struggled so violently, biting and tearing, that we killed them and stripped the skins, which we brought back to Carthage."

I found a candidate for Phoenicia/Carthage epic -- the 'Periplus of Hanno' (sometimes called the 'Voyage of Hanno' which describes a trading expedition down the western coast of Africa, possibly reaching the Gulf of Guinea along the equator. It was fairly famous in ancient times, with multiple Greek authors attesting to the story, and a purported transcription of a tablet Hanno wrote for the Temple of Ba'al Hammon.

Given the Phoenician commercial heritage, and the paucity of Carthaginian literature or other writings, I figured this one should qualify.

I wish there were a surviving transcription of Hannibal's altar at the Temple of Juno Lacinia at Crotone; all we have is Livy's note that Hannibal dedicated it "with a long inscription recording his exploits in Phoenician and also in Greek" (it's the last sentence in the chapter, all the way at the bottom of the page). That would have been useful, but no dice.

 

[merijn_v1]

I understand the reasons for Anne Frank's Diary, but I think that "Van den vos Reynaerde" is more appropriate for the Dutch Heroic Epic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_den_vos_Reynaerde

Images: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_den_vos_Reynaerde#/media/File:Reynard-the-fox.jpg
Quote:

Spoiler :

Then Reynaert said after a long time:
Many thanks for your good advice,
Lord Bruun, dear friend.
He did you a disservice,
the person who suggested that you make this journey
and had you cross this mountain range.
I would have gone to court,
even if you had not advised me to do so,
but my stomach is so full
and in such an excessive way
with some strange new food
that I fear that I shall not be able to go.
I can neither sit nor stand,
I am so extremely full.’
– ‘Reynaert, what did you eat? what?’
– ‘Lord Bruun, I have eaten poor quality food.
A poor man is no count,
that is obvious when you look at me.
We poor people have to eat things that,
if we had the choice, we would never eat.
Good, fresh honeycombs I have in stock aplenty.
Those I must eat out of necessity
when I cannot get anything else.
But when I have swallowed them,
I suffer pain and discomfort as a result.’
Bruun heard this and said:
‘Help, my dear fox Reynaert,
do you despise honey so much?
Honey is delicious food,
which I appreciate above all other dishes
and love more than any other dish.
Reynaert, help me get it.
Noble Reynaert, dear nephew,
so long as I live
I shall love you for it.
Reynaert, help me get it.’

Original Middle Dutch text
Doe sprac Reynaert overlanc:
‘Huwes goets raets hebbet danc,
heere Bruun, wel soete vrient.
Hi hevet hu qualic ghedient
die hu beriet desen ganc
ende hu desen berch lanc
over te loepene dede bestaen.
Ic soude te hove sijn ghegaen,
al haddet ghi mi niet gheraden,
maer mi es den buuc so gheladen
ende in so utermaten wijse
met eere vremder niewer spise,
ic vruchte in sal niet moghen gaen.
Inne mach sitt en no ghestaen;
ic bem so utermaten zat.’
‘Reynaert, wat haetstu, wat?’
‘Heere Brune, ic hat crancke have.
Arem man dannes gheen grave;
dat mooghdi bi mi wel weten.
Wi aerme liede, wi moeten heten,
hadden wijs raet, dat wi node haten.
Goeder versscher honichraten
hebbic couver arde groet.
Die moetic heten dor den noet,
als ic hel niet mach ghewinnen.
Nochtan als icse hebbe binnen,
hebbicker af pine ende onghemac.’
Dit hoerde Brune ende sprac:‘
Helpe, lieve vos Reynaert,
hebdi honich dus onwaert?
Honich es een soete spijse
die ic voer alle gherechten prijse
ende voer alle gherechten minne.
Reynaerd, helpt mi dat ics ghewinne.
Edele Reynaert, soete neve,
also langhe als ic sal leven
willic hu daeromme minnen.
Reynaerd, helpt mi dat ics ghewinne.’

Source:
http://www.oapen.org/viewer/web/viewer.html?file=http://www.oapen.org/document/340003

For the National Epic, I suggest "Max Havelaar"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Havelaar

Image: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Max_Havelaar_9e_druk.jpg
Quote:
I don't know a good part of the text yet.

 

[Steb]

A few new suggestions:

Ottomans (heroic): Osman's Dream
Ottomans (national): maybe Memed, My Hawk or something by Nâzım Hikmet (it seems he wrote several modern epics but there isn't that much information on wikipedia)
Korea (heroic): Chasa Bonpuri
Inca (heroic): Ollantay. Written in colonial times, but it is in Quechua and may have a pre-Hispanic origin.
Inca (national): Huarochirí Manuscript. Not really an epic, but we can't be too picky with the Incas, and this was written in Quechua, by a Native, not too long after the conquest.

I've also been doing some quote-hunting:

Story of Sinuhe (source):
At night, I strung my bow, shot my arrows, sharpened my dagger, and polished my weapons. When the day dawned, Retjenu had come. It had assembled its tribes and had gathered its neighbouring lands, planning this battle. Every heart burned for me, wives were jabbering, and every heart was sorry for me, thinking: "Is there another hero who could fight him?"
or, in a more violent register:
When he approached me, I shot him, and my arrow was stuck in his neck. He cried out and fell on his face. I slew him with his axe and uttered my war-cry on his back while every Asiatic was shouting. I gave praise to Month, whose supporters celebrated a triumph through him.

Song of Roland (source, image):
A man should suffer great ills for his lord,
Endure the bitter cold and bear great heat,
And be prepared to lose both flesh and blood.
Strike with your lance, and I with Durendal
My trusty sword, given me by the king!
If I die here, the man who takes it up can say:
"A noble vassal wielded this!"

Les Misérables (source, with many quotes to choose from):
What you fellows call progress moves by two springs, men and events. But sad to say, from time to time the exceptional is necessary. For events as well as for men, the stock company is not enough; geniuses are needed among men, and revolutions among events.

 

[Publicola]

Les Misérables (source, with many quotes to choose from):
What you fellows call progress moves by two springs, men and events. But sad to say, from time to time the exceptional is necessary. For events as well as for men, the stock company is not enough; geniuses are needed among men, and revolutions among events.

That's a great quote, but it feels a bit too didactic, too professorial, to capture the 'epic'-ness of the text. On the other hand, I checked the rest of the page, and found it hard to find any others that suited better.

There's the 'I purchased your soul for God" passage early on:

He remembered the gentle words of the old man, "you have promised me to become an honest man. I am purchasing your soul, I withdraw it from the spirit of perversity and I give it to God Almighty." This came back to him incessantly.... He felt dimly that the pardon of the priest was the hardest assault, and the most formidable attack which he had yet sustained; ... that, this time, he must conquer or be conquered, and that the struggle, a gigantic and decisive struggle, had begun between his own wickedness, and the goodness of man.

Or there's the depiction of the fight on the barricades:

Imagine fire applied to a mass of terrible valour, and that you are witnessing the conflagration. It was not a combat, it was the interior of a furnace; there mouths breathed flame; there faces were wonderful. There the human form seemed impossible, the combatants flashed flames, and it was terrible to see going and coming in that lurid smoke these salamanders of the fray

Another option might be to take the quote from the Les Miserables stage play/musical, especially the song from the barricades "Do You Hear The People Sing?"

Some will fall and some will live
Will you stand up and take your chance?
The blood of the martyrs
Will water the meadows of France!
Do you hear the people sing?
Singing the songs of angry men?
It is the music of the people
Who will not be slaves again!

 

[Steb]

I'd rather use a Hugo quote than one from the musical. The one I suggested is very typical of Hugo, who does tend to digress often with this kind of didactic tone... And the reference to revolution seemed very appropriate for 19th century France. But yes, I agree, it's not exactly epic. The soul purchase excerpt is good too.

Here is one of the most famous passages from Don Quixote (source). It's a bit long and could certainly be shortened. Many potential images could be used; here's one.

“Fortune is arranging matters for us better than we could have shaped our desires ourselves, for look there, friend Sancho Panza, where thirty or more monstrous giants present themselves, all of whom I mean to engage in battle and slay, and with whose spoils we shall begin to make our fortunes; for this is righteous warfare, and it is God’s good service to sweep so evil a breed from off the face of the earth.”
“What giants?” said Sancho Panza.
“Those thou seest there,” answered his master, “with the long arms, and some have them nearly two leagues long.”
“Look, your worship,” said Sancho; “what we see there are not giants but windmills, and what seem to be their arms are the sails that turned by the wind make the millstone go.”
“It is easy to see,” replied Don Quixote, “that thou art not used to this business of adventures.”

 

[Publicola]

I'll add the Hugo quote you suggested (I'm not sure the 'purchase your soul' one works as an encapsulation of the French cultural identity, especially given how strongly secular France became after the original Revolution). I'll also try to sort out the Don Quixote quote.

I did a bit of research on Byzantine literature, and found a really interesting candidate for 'national epic': namely, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. The Byzantine Empire was, for almost all of its history, defined by its embrace of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, and that Divine Liturgy is one of its best known cultural products. It has been used for celebrating the Mass every day for the last 1500 years at least, and was the centerpiece of Byzantine worship from the 5th century until the fall of Constantinople. It's not a fictional epic, but seeing as we're broadening our gaze, I think it should qualify.

 

[Publicola]

Front page is updated. Here's a list of all the blank entries left in the mega-list:

• Harappa (National and Heroic epics)
• Phoenicia (National epic)
• Polynesia (Heroic epic)
• Ethiopia (Heroic epic)
• Indonesia (Heroic epic)
• Moors (National and Heroic epics)
• Khmer (Heroic epic)
• Mali (Heroic epic)
• Portugal (Heroic epic)
• Mughals (National and Heroic epics)
• Congo (National and Heroic epics)
• Iran (National epic)

Once we have the epics themselves nailed down (or at least have candidates), it should be easier to move from there to identifying images and quotes.

 

[freethink]

I would think it would be ideal for the Khmer to find a heroic epic which is not a rendition of an Indian text.
Vorvong and Sorvong, as a folktale involving the rise and fall, and a return of two nobles to grace might have some good heroic quotations.

 

[Steb]

Even if Reamker is based on the Ramayana, it seems too central to Khmer culture to not be our choice. The same could be said of the Javanese Kakawin Ramayana. I don't know if they should be national or heroic though, and it would be good if the other epic in both cases is an indigenous one.

For Harappa, I think there's simply nothing known about their culture or religion, so I suggest we give them the same epics as India.

For Phoenicia, there is not much available. Besides a few inscriptions on stone, actual Phoenician texts are known only through extremely fragmentary quotes by Greek authors. I suggest the following passage from Philo of Byblos's Phoenician History, which is probably some form of quotation of the Phoenician historian Sanchuniathon (source): "Of those who were under the sun, Taautos was the first to have conceived the discovery of the letters and to have begun the writing of records." I like that it can be linked to the invention of the alphabet by the Phoenicians.

For the Moors, Pennants of the Champions is apparently an important anthology of poetry from Al-Andalus. Could work. Hadith Bayad wa Riyad is another option: it's a love story from Al-Andalus and a rare surviving Moorish manuscript. I also found a short reference to a Moroccan epic called Mal'aba.

For Mali, I found two West African epics besides the Epic of Sundiata: Epic of Bamana Segu and Epic of Silammaka and Puluru (article in French only).

For the Mughals, there are no obvious choices. There's a Persian translation of the Mahabharata called Razmnama, and then there's the Hamzanama, an epic that seems to predate the spawn of the Mughals, but was made into a famous illustrated manuscript under the reign of Akbar. There are also biographies of the Mughal rulers that could maybe serve as heroic epics.

 

[Publicola]

For Harappa, I think there's simply nothing known about their culture or religion, so I suggest we give them the same epics as India.

Good idea. Let's see if there are any oral traditions from that region's early history, especially Vedic and Dravidian cultures -- they're not the same people groups, but similar milieu, so it might qualify.

For Phoenicia, there is not much available. Besides a few inscriptions on stone, actual Phoenician texts are known only through extremely fragmentary quotes by Greek authors. I suggest the following passage from Philo of Byblos's Phoenician History, which is probably some form of quotation of the Phoenician historian Sanchuniathon (source): "Of those who were under the sun, Taautos was the first to have conceived the discovery of the letters and to have begun the writing of records." I like that it can be linked to the invention of the alphabet by the Phoenicians.

Nice find; I'll add it to the list.

For the Moors, Pennants of the Champions is apparently an important anthology of poetry from Al-Andalus. Could work. Hadith Bayad wa Riyad is another option: it's a love story from Al-Andalus and a rare surviving Moorish manuscript. I also found a short reference to a Moroccan epic called Mal'aba.

Pennants definitely seems like a national epic candidate; Mal'aba sounds more like a heroic epic, though it's pretty vague. As for Hadith Bayad, the entry in the wiki makes it sound much more Arabic than Moorish, so I'm not inclined to pick it. One other candidate for Moorish epic might be the Muqaddimah, which isn't fiction but is an incredibly important work of Moorish history.

For Mali, I found two West African epics besides the Epic of Sundiata: Epic of Bamana Segu and Epic of Silammaka and Puluru (article in French only).

Neither of these originated from medieval Mali; one is from the 1600's, the other from the 1800's. They might be loosely based on oral tradition, but unless someone is familiar with either work and can confirm that, I don't think they fit.

For the Mughals, there are no obvious choices. There's a Persian translation of the Mahabharata called Razmnama, and then there's the Hamzanama, an epic that seems to predate the spawn of the Mughals, but was made into a famous illustrated manuscript under the reign of Akbar. There are also biographies of the Mughal rulers that could maybe serve as heroic epics.

Babur's autobiography, the Baburnama, is another really good candidate for either national or heroic epic. Given that the Hamzanama sounds more like a heroic epic (tales of battle and adventure galore) and Babur's role in founding the Mughal empire to begin with, I'm inclined to add the Baburnama as a national epic.

 

[freethink]

After some research I think a quote from one of the tales of Muai should be used for heroism. It turns out that every Polynesian culture has their own version. Resources on the Hawaiian and Maori versions of him are most plentiful.

I favor using a quote from one of the Hawaiian stories most likely as they seem to be most connected to heroism and warrior stuff.

 

[Omega124]

Honestly, I think Last of the Mohicans deserves a place in our list, given how it helped to define the American character of 'rugged individualism', especially on the frontier. Alternately, both Uncle Tom's Cabin and To Kill A Mockingbird contributed to the modern identity that focuses more on freedom and civil rights. Either of those could work as well.

As for a heroic epic, I can't believe I hadn't thought of it before, but what do people think of adding Red Badge of Courage to the list?

This might be a bit off the wall, but I think I know of a Heoric Epic that might be more famous and mythological to the US than Red Badge of Courage, but it is a lot more modern. Like, its a different medium from everything else on the list.

I'm thinking of Saving Private Ryan, the Spielberg movie. I know it only came out in 1998, and thus it might be a bit recent, but I believe its already become a part of Americana nevertheless. It has a legendary reputation as a film, and its become a cornerstone of some people's celebration of Veteran's Day in the same way other stories have become cortnerstones of their holidays.

I have a suggestion for Portugal's Heoric Epic as well: the Amadís de Gaula. The authorship of this story, from my research, is disuputed. The oldest known surviving version of the story was written in Castillian, but it was traditionally attributed as a Portuguese story, written in Portuguese, that was translated into Castillian (again, modern research disputes this claim, but this is what was definitely historically believed). The actual story is probably the most famous chivarlic romance in Iberia, probably the most famous story that Don Quixote was attempting to parody, even.

EDIT: I also would personally suggest, for Byzantium, swapping their current Heoric Epic with the Alexiad. I don't think the current one is bad per se, but I think the Alexiad is far more well known as a work, both in Greece and abroad.