Diseases Revisited Again!

[JosEPh_II]

Okay there is discussion about Diseases again. My Original Modmod was included way back in 2015. There have been changes since then of course.

But what I was trying to find has disappeared into the depths of CFC's posting black hole. The Chart that displayed all Diseases and their malus and what would happen to your if youi let them go unchecked. There are some that still proport that Diseases are a nonfactor to game play. So with that in mind I have found my old notebook chart that has all the details I was hoping to find in the post I used to display them in for all to see.

So with all that prologue said here is the Chart again for Disease reference.
One caveat is that the entry level may have changed since I made this chart several years ago.
There are 16 Diseases.
ATTENTION: The Yields are YieldModifiers so they are %s. So the bigger the city the more the effect. Just how %'s work you know.

Common Cold entry level +10, -1, -1, -1% PrereqTech None
Scurvy +75, -1, -2, -1, -2 PT Naturopathy Preh Era
Scarlet fever +125 -2, -2, -2 , -3 PT Tribalism Preh Era
Dysentery +175 -2, -3, -2, -4, -1 PT Slavery Preh Era
Swine Flu +200 -3, -3, -3, -4, -1 PT Animal Husbandry Preh Era
Bird Flu +225 -3, -4, -3,-5, -2 PT Poultry Domestication Preh Era
Measles +300 -4, -4 -4, -5, -2 PT Sedentary Lifestyle Ancient Era
Diphtheria +350 -4, -5, -4, -6, -3 PT Sed. Life Ancient Era
Cholera +400 -5, -5, -5, -6, -4 PT Sed Life Ancient
Anthrax +450 -5, -6, -5, -7, -5 PT Animal Husbandry Preh
Typhoid Fever +500, -6, -6, -6, -7, -6 PT Sed Life Ancient
*Syphillis +550, -6, -7, -6, -8, -7, PT Polytheism Ancient Era(?)
Malaria +650, -7, -7, -7, -8, -8 PT Tribalism Preh
Smallpox + 700, -8, -8, -8, -9, -9, PT Animal Husbandry
Leprosy +800, -9, -9, -9, -10, -10 PT Sed Life, Ancient
Plague +900, -10, -10, -10, -12, -12 PT Sed life

If left unchecked and All Diseases come into play the losses to: = 75%, = 97%, = 70%
Total negative = 75, Total negative = 85

The Entry levels I think are correct but I will need to double check them.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Reserved

 

[Thunderbrd]

HIV wasn't around until Counterculture in tech terms in RL. At least that one came in a bit later in history and that's good to have one of these put off until cities are larger and more capable of dealing with all that.

If we have any real trouble with happiness being a crushing issue in games, it might help to diminish the happiness penalties a bit. Health penalties strike me as a little soft here but if we do enable unhealth to be a source of disease it could be appropriate enough as is since it would mean excess unhealth FROM disease is inviting MORE disease and that's very realistic but does demand response or starvation is coming (which disease should be able to cause with some ease.)

It's a little frustrating having to think of these as being layers where everything beneath a given disease must also be a problem if that disease is, but that's how the core system works, unfortunately. Outbreaks and Afflictions will NOT work that way at all. But I'll keep from trying to derail us into that discussion here.

 

[JosEPh_II]

HIV wasn't around until Counterculture in tech terms in RL.

I think historians might disagree about when HIV came into play. Many Early religions used Temple Prostitutes which were Both Men and Women. That is why I placed it on Polytheism long ago with my original Disease Modmod from 2015 which was then put into the main mod.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think historians might disagree about when HIV came into play. Many Early religions used Temple Prostitutes which were Both Men and Women. That is why I placed it on Polytheism long ago with my original Disease Modmod from 2015 which was then put into the main mod.

HIV was unknown until the 80s when it was finally discovered to be the cause of a growing number of strange cases of immunodeficiency that had been showing up, primarily among the gay community, perhaps as early as the 60's but no earlier. It hasn't been with us all this time or it would have already wiped out a hell of a lot of humanity. I've read a bit about HIV and have never encountered one article that considered that it may have been among us before this century and the most likely sources have been stated to be either someone was having sex with primates, where the disease was cycling around among those communities without causing harm for generations upon generations and only once it encountered Humans did it ever manifest AIDS, or we made this thing in a lab - which actually have strong compelling arguments for supporting and even some loose evidence pointing towards that conclusion, even suggesting the source lab.

Regardless, the takeaway is that this thing was not a plague on Humanity until the sexual revolution was in full 'swing' (pun intended.)

 

[raxo2222]

I think historians might disagree about when HIV came into play. Many Early religions used Temple Prostitutes which were Both Men and Women. That is why I placed it on Polytheism long ago with my original Disease Modmod from 2015 which was then put into the main mod.

I guess you should change HIV to generic "STD" or Ebola.
There could be much nastier plagues in that scenario.

HIV is very insidious: it may take months, years or even decades after you contract it.
There are much more infectious and or much more lethal diseases in short term, that could be substituted with.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

My view for Cholera only would be

Disease < 400; Water pollution < 10 (guess); Water and Sanitation match population of city

• no affect from Cholera

One of Disease >= 400; Water pollution >= 10 (guess); Water and Sanitation less that the population need

• small chance of minor outbreak (max -1 population before Modern Medicine -0 after)
  
• probably some small , and loss of

Two of the above

• good chance of minor outbreak (max -1 population before Modern Medicine -0 after)
• small chance of major outbreak =
  • minor outbreak over a number of turns with a maximum population reduction based on the Water and Sanitation level in the city
  • plus no produced that turn. Modern Medicine (electrolytes) removes this

Three of the above

• population decreases by 1 each turn until it matches the Water and Sanitation level of the city
• plus no produced that turn. Modern Medicine (electrolytes) removes this

Examples of Water and Sanitation level

• pop 1-4 - fresh water
• pop 5-13 village well
• pop 13-25 aqueduct and sewer system

 

[JosEPh_II]

Guys I did not make the list of individual diseases. Those came from Hydro and DH (I think).

HIV wasn't around until Counterculture in tech terms in RL. At least that one came in a bit later in history and that's good to have one of these put off until cities are larger and more capable of dealing with all that.

If we have any real trouble with happiness being a crushing issue in games, it might help to diminish the happiness penalties a bit. Health penalties strike me as a little soft here but if we do enable unhealth to be a source of disease it could be appropriate enough as is since it would mean excess unhealth FROM disease is inviting MORE disease and that's very realistic but does demand response or starvation is coming (which disease should be able to cause with some ease.)

It's a little frustrating having to think of these as being layers where everything beneath a given disease must also be a problem if that disease is, but that's how the core system works, unfortunately. Outbreaks and Afflictions will NOT work that way at all. But I'll keep from trying to derail us into that discussion here.

The diseases used to come in clumps just like Pests used to do. You would get 3-4 or more coming in at a certain entry level. Can be done again.

And if you want to believe that HIV is only a recent epidemic because of the recent sexual revolution counterculture feel free to continue in that tunnel vision vein. But you are forgetting history. Homosexuality has never been confined to the current age. The Romans, the Chaldeans, the Hittites, the Egyptians and other historical groups had their "times" with it too. And every time polytheism became involved in a culture so did this particular "problem". One of the oldest recorded incidents is Sodom and Gomorrah. Hmmm were did the term sodomy come from??? What are the consequences of sodomy?​

My view for Cholera only would be

Disease < 400; Water pollution < 10 (guess); Water and Sanitation match population of city

• no affect from Cholera

One of Disease >= 400; Water pollution >= 10 (guess); Water and Sanitation less that the population need

• small chance of minor outbreak (max -1 population before Modern Medicine -0 after)
  
• probably some small , and loss of

Two of the above

• good chance of minor outbreak (max -1 population before Modern Medicine -0 after)
• small chance of major outbreak =
  • minor outbreak over a number of turns with a maximum population reduction based on the Water and Sanitation level in the city
  • plus no produced that turn. Modern Medicine (electrolytes) removes this

Three of the above

• population decreases by 1 each turn until it matches the Water and Sanitation level of the city
• plus no produced that turn. Modern Medicine (electrolytes) removes this

Examples of Water and Sanitation level

• pop 1-4 - fresh water
• pop 5-13 village well
• pop 13-25 aqueduct and sewer system

When you were in charge of Diseases why didn't you implement these ideas?

 

[raxo2222]

And if you want to believe that HIV is only a recent epidemic because of the recent sexual revolution counterculture feel free to continue in that tunnel vision vein. But you are forgetting history. Homosexuality has never been confined to the current age. The Romans, the Chaldeans, the Hittites, the Egyptians and other historical groups had their "times" with it too. And every time polytheism became involved in a culture so did this particular "problem". One of the oldest recorded incidents is Sodom and Gomorrah. Hmmm were did the term sodomy come from??? What are the consequences of sodomy?

Change name of this disease to STD (or choose name of most common STD) then, because HIV is one of STDs, problem solved.
And no one was denying existence of sodomy and prostitution in history.

 

[Yudishtira]

And if you want to believe that HIV is only a recent epidemic because of the recent sexual revolution counterculture feel free to continue in that tunnel vision vein. But you are forgetting history. Homosexuality has never been confined to the current age. The Romans, the Chaldeans, the Hittites, the Egyptians and other historical groups had their "times" with it too. And every time polytheism became involved in a culture so did this particular "problem". One of the oldest recorded incidents is Sodom and Gomorrah.

Sodom and Gomorrah is propaganda fiction. And if you can't tell the difference between homosexuality and HIV, you'd be better off with tunnel vision...

We believe HIV is relatively recent because of the evidence.

 

[tmv]

HIV was unknown until the 80s when it was finally discovered to be the cause of a growing number of strange cases of immunodeficiency that had been showing up, primarily among the gay community, perhaps as early as the 60's but no earlier. It hasn't been with us all this time or it would have already wiped out a hell of a lot of humanity. I've read a bit about HIV and have never encountered one article that considered that it may have been among us before this century and the most likely sources have been stated to be either someone was having sex with primates, where the disease was cycling around among those communities without causing harm for generations upon generations and only once it encountered Humans did it ever manifest AIDS, or we made this thing in a lab - which actually have strong compelling arguments for supporting and even some loose evidence pointing towards that conclusion, even suggesting the source lab.

Regardless, the takeaway is that this thing was not a plague on Humanity until the sexual revolution was in full 'swing' (pun intended.)

Current sources seem to suggest that HIV originated at the beginning of the 20th century in Africa, most likely by people consuming bushmeat. The hypothesis of HIV having been created in a lab seems to have been conclusively refuted (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infektion). It's one thing to assume the worst, but this idea has been put down.

Besides, the fact that AIDS takes a long time to manifest itself (although that doesn't mean at all that the virus is dormant, it just means that the virus takes years to defeat the immune system) means that AIDS couldn't have been a universal killer even if it had existed before.

And if you can't tell the difference between homosexuality and HIV

That's a strawman. Do you deny that there is a connection between homosexuality and risk of HIV infection, especially in the 80s?

We believe HIV is relatively recent because of the evidence.

Who is 'we'?

 

[raxo2222]

sounds like HIV was meant to be modern era disease, and all others were for earlier times.

Now it is acting up years after it was added

 

[Toffer90]

That's a strawman. Do you deny that there is a connection between homosexuality and risk of HIV infection, especially in the 80s?

What you say here is a better example of strawman argumentation.
You are putting words in his mouth, he didn't deny that.

And if you can't tell the difference between homosexuality and HIV

Heterosexuals can spread HIV too, so what Yudi said is a perfectly valid statement, nothing "strawmanny" about it.
The statement is 100% True in one way, since a disease and a preference cannot be compared, so there must be a difference between them.

 

[Thunderbrd]

And if you want to believe that HIV is only a recent epidemic because of the recent sexual revolution counterculture feel free to continue in that tunnel vision vein. But you are forgetting history. Homosexuality has never been confined to the current age. The Romans, the Chaldeans, the Hittites, the Egyptians and other historical groups had their "times" with it too. And every time polytheism became involved in a culture so did this particular "problem". One of the oldest recorded incidents is Sodom and Gomorrah. Hmmm were did the term sodomy come from??? What are the consequences of sodomy?

AIDS does not only infect homosexuals and therefore is not a curse by God on gay men. It is prevalent among the gay community due to two primary reasons, it is common for a gay man to be more widely promiscuous due to the social stigma of settling down with one partner and their forms of 'interaction' (I could get more explicit here) involves greater risk of blood sharing due to the potential for tissue damage being elevated. Other than that, it transfers between two partners with some ease and regularity regardless of whether it is homosexual in nature or heterosexual. There are quite a few straight women in the world infected with HIV.

That's a strawman. Do you deny that there is a connection between homosexuality and risk of HIV infection, especially in the 80s?

The connection is for good reasons, as I just explained, and aside from the involvement of Russian propaganda, which is often spread on the basis of reasonable suspicion with added fictional embelishment anyhow which is why it is so very effective, one does have to consider that the disease seems well engineered to primarily target the poor and the homosexual, making it a very selective weapon that a white elite faction would love to have unleashed. Nevertheless...

Current sources seem to suggest that HIV originated at the beginning of the 20th century in Africa, most likely by people consuming bushmeat. The hypothesis of HIV having been created in a lab seems to have been conclusively refuted (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infektion). It's one thing to assume the worst, but this idea has been put down.

True that the consumption theory has as much validity as the sex with monkeys theory and they are basically just twin theories basing the findings on the possibility that it is just an adapted virus from one commonly found in primates. This certainly is more likely, and still suggests the timeline I'm proposing the introduction of the disease into the public of the game world would hold true.

However, I wouldn't completely discount the potential for human creation just because it has been found that Russians promoted the idea. It wouldn't be the first time their propagandas have been more true than not but now able to have greater doubt cast upon them because it was shown that it was a misinformation campaign that they were running that caused so many to think it. I was thinking this was likely man-made long before I ever read anything that supported the idea because the demographics it targets are suspiciously supportive of it being potentially manmade and it came about during an era where we were not unlikely to be testing the development of such things just for the sake of research if nothing else. It's NOT a far-fetched concept which is exactly why the Russians hit on the idea and promoted it as a weaponized propaganda.

That said, always keep doubt. I'm not trying to say it is or isn't man-made. Just saying that it can't yet be ruled out.

But that debate isn't even the point here. The point is that it IS a new disease. Doctors have been keeping records of their patients for many centuries and it clearly was not pre-existing the 20th century. Those responsible for researching the subject have written many dissertations on that subject to show this as fact. I'm sure those who wish to question the legitimacy of this statement can find plenty to read online that will discuss it in much greater detail than I care to.

Besides, the fact that AIDS takes a long time to manifest itself (although that doesn't mean at all that the virus is dormant, it just means that the virus takes years to defeat the immune system) means that AIDS couldn't have been a universal killer even if it had existed before.

The disease is 100% lethal and takes an average of 6 months to incubate. We have developed treatments that slow that down and even treatments that suspend the disease indefinitely, but if it had been around throughout history, slow as it may be, it would've cause a LOT more death, as it is currently doing throughout places in Africa where modern treatments are a bit too expensive to spread around as liberally as the disease has spread.

 

[raxo2222]

True that the consumption theory has as much validity as the sex with monkeys theory and they are basically just twin theories basing the findings on the possibility that it is just an adapted virus from one commonly found in primates. This certainly is more likely, and still suggests the timeline I'm proposing the introduction of the disease into the public of the game world would hold true.

However, I wouldn't completely discount the potential for human creation just because it has been found that Russians promoted the idea. It wouldn't be the first time their propagandas have been more true than not but now able to have greater doubt cast upon them because it was shown that it was a misinformation campaign that they were running that caused so many to think it. I was thinking this was likely man-made long before I ever read anything that supported the idea because the demographics it targets are suspiciously supportive of it being potentially manmade and it came about during an era where we were not unlikely to be testing the development of such things just for the sake of research if nothing else. It's NOT a far-fetched concept which is exactly why the Russians hit on the idea and promoted it as a weaponized propaganda.

That said, always keep doubt. I'm not trying to say it is or isn't man-made. Just saying that it can't yet be ruled out.

I think he meant, that conspiracy theory about AIDS being manmade is as dead as geocentrism.
That is AIDS being manmade is same level as vacciness causing autism or being poisonous, climate change denial, nuclear energy being too dangerous to be of any use, NASA faking moon landing, and other "mainstream" conspiracy theories.
Is there even "mainstream" conspiracy theory, that originated in Europe?

There is whole range of beliefs concerning shadiness or benevolence of governments, religions, corporations and military.

I suggest renaming HIV to something else.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think he meant, that conspiracy theory about AIDS being manmade is as dead as geocentrism.
That is AIDS being manmade is same level as vacciness causing autism or being poisonous, climate change denial, nuclear energy being too dangerous to be of any use, NASA faking moon landing, and other "mainstream" conspiracy theories.

There is whole range of beliefs concerning shadiness or benevolence of governments, religions, corporations and military.

I suggest renaming HIV to something else.

Again, whether it was human created has nothing to do with this discussion really. It is purely about when it emerged to infect people and that it did not do so prior to the 20th century is not contestable and has been conclusively proven. There's also no reason to remove it from the game considering that its impact on the human psyche in our time has been profound. I don't think we've begun to model what its effect on culture has been.

Other diseases you mentioned to replace it with should eventually ALSO be modeled, but perhaps not until O&A since the core disease system is purely compounding all the diseases in the list as the disease property increases.

 

[raxo2222]

Again, whether it was human created has nothing to do with this discussion really. It is purely about when it emerged to infect people and that it did not do so prior to the 20th century is not contestable and has been conclusively proven. There's also no reason to remove it from the game considering that its impact on the human psyche in our time has been profound. I don't think we've begun to model what its effect on culture has been.

Well then it could be like other special disease - Kuru - its part of Cannibalism world view, it isn't fully implemented yet.
HIV would be unlocked in Atomic era.
We could use other STD in place of HIV for Ancient timeframe.

 

[Osk21]

Well then it could be like other special disease - Kuru - its part of Cannibalism world view, it isn't fully implemented yet.
HIV would be unlocked in Atomic era.
We could use other STD in place of HIV for Ancient timeframe.

What about more reproductive diseases and animal viruses like Nile virus and Spanish flu or Opioid epidemic events?

 

[raxo2222]

What about more reproductive diseases and animal viruses like Nile virus and Spanish flu or Opioid epidemic events?

There can be more diseases, just that Thunderbrd needs to make his project first.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Most of it's made, as far as the coding. Just needs a lot of XML planning and implementation and sadly keeps ending up less important than other things which are more of a fix than a development.