Diseases Revisited Again!

[Thunderbrd]

We could use other STD in place of HIV for Ancient timeframe.

I certainly see the point you're making here to fill in what Joseph is trying to express with something that WAS a problem back then. Syphilis would be the one, most likely, as it has long been a plague on man and is a lethal STD. It has also had a profound effect on humanity, even at times dominating fashion choices since it was so prevalent. Many historical leaders have had it and even eventually succumbed to it and it often created some madness in otherwise powerful historical figures.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Sodom and Gomorrah is propaganda fiction. And if you can't tell the difference between homosexuality and HIV, you'd be better off with tunnel vision...

We believe HIV is relatively recent because of the evidence.

You have your ideas of what is right the same as I do. But I do not have to put up with labeling. Understand me? Back off with the denigrating statements. Your arrogance, ignorance, and Bias is showing again.

AIDS does not only infect homosexuals and therefore is not a curse by God on gay men. It is prevalent among the gay community due to two primary reasons, it is common for a gay man to be more widely promiscuous due to the social stigma of settling down with one partner and their forms of 'interaction' (I could get more explicit here) involves greater risk of blood sharing due to the potential for tissue damage being elevated. Other than that, it transfers between two partners with some ease and regularity regardless of whether it is homosexual in nature or heterosexual. There are quite a few straight women in the world infected with HIV.

Please Stop! Do not lecture me like I'm a little uneducated child nor try pinning the tail on the donkey with me here either. Just back off of this tact immediately. I will not put up with it. It is offensive to me.

Now all of you take your labeling and bias and sit on it. And for the record I do not consider any of you responding here in this thread history experts so don't pretend that you are.

I suggest renaming HIV to something else.

Hydro named it and put it in the list. If any of you have a problem with that take it up with him.
I really don't care what this place holder name in the disease list is called, so I agree with you raxo! .

NOW that that is out of the way, As I stated I did not name the Diseases But I tried to find for this one a relevant place in the early tech tree to get it into play early in the game. No more no less. So If Anyone of you want to rename it go right ahead and reassign a Tech placement for it be my quest. But will this renaming cause a Save game breaking issue? I don't know. One time I'm told it will another time I'm told it won't.

The above series of posts are detrimental to any actual work getting done. And I for one am very tired of this type of covert bullying.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Do not lecture me like I'm a little uneducated child nor try pinning the tail on the donkey with me here either

While I mean no offense, you did display that you were uneducated on this subject so I felt it was important to catch you up on the facts regarding this disease. I'm not trying to belittle or make you feel bad about that either and I"m not sure what pin the tail on the donkey means here because I said nothing to label you or call you a name. I'm just clearing up the lack of knowledge displayed on this subject.

And for the record I do not consider any of you responding here in this thread history experts so don't pretend that you are.

If you doubt what I'm saying, do some research into the subject. Again, I mean no disrespect and am simply trying to not only be helpful to inform you of what you apparently don't know and keep us from spreading misinformation through the mod.

As I stated I did not name the Diseases But I tried to find for this one a relevant place in the early tech tree to get it into play early in the game. No more no less.

Why was it important to get it into the game early?

I have no problem with relabelling it - that can be done easily without creating conflict by changing the substance of the text key - just don't change the <TYPE> tag name - that's what causes some disturbance, though it wouldn't cause much because the game would remove all instances of the old object and the property engine would then replace it with the new one if it was still belonging there. Where this does create a problem is when you're renaming the <TYPE> tag and it causes a lot of buildings or units to get wiped out that won't automatically replace themselves. The only reason this one would replace itself automatically is because the property system checks to see if it should be there every round anyhow.

 

[raxo2222]

Why was it important to get it into the game early?

I have no problem with relabelling it - that can be done easily without creating conflict by changing the substance of the text key - just don't change the <TYPE> tag name - that's what causes some disturbance, though it wouldn't cause much because the game would remove all instances of the old object and the property engine would then replace it with the new one if it was still belonging there. Where this does create a problem is when you're renaming the <TYPE> tag and it causes a lot of buildings or units to get wiped out that won't automatically replace themselves. The only reason this one would replace itself automatically is because the property system checks to see if it should be there every round anyhow.

He wanted to have all diseases unlocked in Prehistoric/Ancient era, that is all.
As for misinformation in mod you thought we will use quantum gravity (though gravity manipulating techs appear in Transhuman or Galactic era) for levitation in Nanotech era, and that fusion reactors explode, so you aren't 100% saint when it comes to misinformation.
USA would be much more powerful and universally respected if it wasn't for USSR - America was going for mastery victory but something was broken inside of it

So I'll rename HIV to Syphilis (ingame name, NOT type tag) and problem solved.
Current tech would mean it first appeared 1000 years before it was supposedly first described.
But there is uncertainty for other diseases too.

Of course C2C universe theoretically could have aliens, that messes with viruses or sprinkle exotic atoms, but we should stay relatively faithful to current knowledge of history and science.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

When you were in charge of Diseases why didn't you implement these ideas?

I was never in charge of Diseases. I did discuss it with Hydro when he was designing the Disease stuff but I did not explain it well enough and everyone said my ideas were un-fun.

 

[Faustmouse]

Why rename hiv or move it? I think it is good to have disease in more eras, not only ancient ones. Renaming it would only cause confusion in the future when the Tag is different.

 

[raxo2222]

Why rename hiv or move it? I think it is good to have disease in more eras, not only ancient ones. Renaming it would only cause confusion in the future when the Tag is different.

Diseases start existing in Prehistoric/Ancient era up until some point in future.
HIV is too tied to Modern era, originally it was disease unlocked in Modern era.

Also significant amount of items have different ingame name and tag name anyway.
For example 10% of techs have different ingame name and tag name as you can see in Thunderbrd tech tree or in notes in Caveman2Cosmos folder.

 

[Faustmouse]

Diseases start existing in Prehistoric/Ancient era up until some point in future.
HIV is too tied to Modern era, originally it was disease unlocked in Modern

I know. Thats exactly why I suggested to keep it in modern, to spread out disease. Of course its fine to das std if you want more diseases

 

[raxo2222]

I know. Thats exactly why I suggested to keep it in modern, to spread out disease. Of course its fine to das std if you want more diseases

Ah so you wanted to move HIV back to modern era and make new disease in its place?

 

[tmv]

What you say here is a better example of strawman argumentation.
You are putting words in his mouth, he didn't deny that.

Heterosexuals can spread HIV too, so what Yudi said is a perfectly valid statement, nothing "strawmanny" about it.
The statement is 100% True in one way, since a disease and a preference cannot be compared, so there must be a difference between them.

He didn't deny that? What about

And if you can't tell the difference between homosexuality and HIV, you'd be better off with tunnel vision

Joseph never said the two were the same, the above sentence was just taking the worst possible interpretation and running with it. And yes, heterosexuals can spread HIV as well, but it's mostly a different viral strain that is not common in the western world (it's more in countries like Thailand where these strains are common - see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7715340/), so if you live where the other strains are more prevalent (see https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/aids/atlas/clade.html), heterosexual transmission is much less likely.

 

[JosEPh_II]

While I mean no offense, you did display that you were uneducated on this subject so I felt it was important to catch you up on the facts regarding this disease. I'm not trying to belittle or make you feel bad about that either and I"m not sure what pin the tail on the donkey means here because I said nothing to label you or call you a name. I'm just clearing up the lack of knowledge displayed on this subject.

If you doubt what I'm saying, do some research into the subject. Again, I mean no disrespect and am simply trying to not only be helpful to inform you of what you apparently don't know and keep us from spreading misinformation through the mod.


Why was it important to get it into the game early?

I have no problem with relabelling it - that can be done easily without creating conflict by changing the substance of the text key - just don't change the <TYPE> tag name - that's what causes some disturbance, though it wouldn't cause much because the game would remove all instances of the old object and the property engine would then replace it with the new one if it was still belonging there. Where this does create a problem is when you're renaming the <TYPE> tag and it causes a lot of buildings or units to get wiped out that won't automatically replace themselves. The only reason this one would replace itself automatically is because the property system checks to see if it should be there every round anyhow.

Why do you persist in this arrogant and elitist assumption that I do not know anything and therefore need educating? I asked you to stop. Yet you persist. You make erroneous assumptions about my knowledge and then run with them as if they are in fact truth. You belittle me. And insult me. Again I Have asked you to stop in this denigrating action. I felt No Need to dissect the current status of HIV or it's research. It is irrelevant to the placement of this disease slot or name. Do Not Continue to run this erroneous path. In fact I may have a Better understanding of it than you! Have you watched a friend die of it? Well Have you?! If not shut Up!

This thread has been thoroughly Hijacked by Know It Alls!

 

[raxo2222]

Why do you persist in this arrogant and elitist assumption that I do not know anything and therefore need educating? I asked you to stop. Yet you persist. You make erroneous assumptions about my knowledge and then run with them as if they are in fact truth. You belittle me. And insult me. Again I Have asked you to stop in this denigrating action. I felt No Need to dissect the current status of HIV or it's research. It is irrelevant to the placement of this disease slot or name. Do Not Continue to run this erroneous path. In fact I may have a Better understanding of it than you! Have you watched a friend die of it? Well Have you?! If not shut Up!

This thread has been thoroughly Hijacked by Know It Alls!

He was similarly annoyed, when I said that monoatomic gold was in fact a hoax - details are in thread I linked here.
Generally nuclear (or whole modern) physics is his weakness.
I changed description of Levitation tech (and related factory and resource) to fit other techs in Nanotech era back then.
I mentioned this because this discussion reminded me of it

Anyway I renamed HIV to syphilis - disease with way stronger historical record.

 

[Thunderbrd]

As for misinformation in mod you thought we will use quantum gravity (though gravity manipulating techs appear in Transhuman or Galactic era) for levitation in Nanotech era, and that fusion reactors explode, so you aren't 100% saint when it comes to misinformation.

Fantasy future potential is different than outright misstatement of modern known fact. There's a difference between science-fiction and wrong.

Why do you persist in this arrogant and elitist assumption that I do not know anything and therefore need educating?

Because what you said was not only dramatically inaccurate, it was extremely offensively bigoted against homosexuals. Not that I am one but it hits a nerve nevertheless.

I felt No Need to dissect the current status of HIV or it's research.

Whether you felt the need or not doesn't mean that it doesn't stand out as completely wrong to have it emerge many eras before it ever existed. If you already know that, then why did you implement it that way?

I'm sorry if you had a friend die from the disease.

I did some further research on the subject last night and could find nothing that didn't support what I and Yudishtira were trying to explain. HIV has not been in the human experience prior to the 1900s and was not diagnosed as a disease until 1981. This is all I'm balking about having the disease showing up in the Classical era over. It's not just a random complaint here. It stands out as scientifically completely wrong. That's all. If you didn't want a conflict over it, you'd simply change it when that was pointed out. Instead, you wanted to advertise how stupid you are by making a completely false equivalency between being homosexual and there being a divine punishment for that which this disease represents. Sorry but I find that ignorant af.

 

[raxo2222]

Fantasy future potential is different than outright misstatement of modern known fact. There's a difference between science-fiction and wrong.

Fantasy potential should rise steadily as game progresses. Also it should be supported by ingame techs.
Nanotech - anything breaking physics as we know is actual wrong.
Transhuman - tech can break physics if you explicitely say so for example Frost Beams tech.
Galactic - here you can deviate from physics as we know.
Cosmic - you can do almost anything you want to.
Transcendent - tear reality apart if you want.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Fantasy potential should rise steadily as game progresses, that idea was essentially like transhuman hero in Prehistoric era, while you could use 1000 normal humans.
Similarly I edited out magnetic monopoles from Accelerated Germination tech in Transhuman era.
That is same levitation can be achieved with more mundane solutions.
Nanotech is hardest of Science Fiction - no breaks from physics as we know now, and this one was breaking current physics - that is gravity bending is way too early here.
Later eras are more lenient.

There IS space for materials, that shouldn't work according to current knowledge of physics, but all that exotic atom crafting is reserved for Galactic if not Cosmic era.
Gravity bending techs are in Galactic and later eras too.
Transhuman era despite mastery over biology and possibly chemistry still is too primitive to have actual control over gravity and picotechnology isn't a thing yet.

My only issue with the approach you demand to take with this is that I was hoping that C2C could become a worldbuilding background for the novels I was writing. I had made a few tweaks to the tech tree to enable that and had made a few science-fiction claims that also aligned with the novels. I can accept that the two efforts shall not mix at this point but I was never trying to make any claims of fact that were contradictory to truth, only claims that could not be shown to be untrue because we were talking about future, even if it is near future, development. I've let go of that concern and no longer consider C2C to be a related project and that's fine.

But nothing about what I was proposing was something that could be construed as an outright moral assault on an entire segment of marginalized people. There's a significant difference here in the topic matter.

 

[raxo2222]

My only issue with the approach you demand to take with this is that I was hoping that C2C could become a worldbuilding background for the novels I was writing. I had made a few tweaks to the tech tree to enable that and had made a few science-fiction claims that also aligned with the novels. I can accept that the two efforts shall not mix at this point but I was never trying to make any claims of fact that were contradictory to truth, only claims that could not be shown to be untrue because we were talking about future, even if it is near future, development. I've let go of that concern and no longer consider C2C to be a related project and that's fine.

But nothing about what I was proposing was something that could be construed as an outright moral assault on an entire segment of marginalized people. There's a significant difference here in the topic matter.

Well both AIDS in Ancient and and gravity bending (and exploding fusion reactors) in Nanotech era are equally impossible without alien intervention, though planet with Ancient or Nanotech era civilizations could be laboratory for Galactic or Cosmic era civilization.
For me Nanotech era is supercharged Information era - everything as we know is here, but technology is much more entrenched, and its more about overcoming engineering challenges.

Also I don't think Joseph was homophobic - more like he was clumsy with language - its sometimes difficult to communicate with him.
By the way it seems like you see incompetence as malice sometimes.
He probably confused HIV with other STD, just like you confused neutrons and protons or misremembered other details when we were talking about fusion reactors and their perfect safety.
That is you both are guilty of spreading some misinformation, just in different areas.

So we need -2 education per pop per era starting in Industrial Era - stuff gets overcomplicated to keep up with it.
Also whatever unlocks Social Media (or building representing Social Media) should have fat - to education as its easy to make misleading claims and then multiply it in echo chambers where others fall for it because it confirms their beliefs and worldviews.
Source of it doesn't matter - it could be stray propaganda piece from government, or some individual wanted easy money or just plain fun at cost of others.

 

[Thunderbrd]

By the way it seems like you see incompetence as malice sometimes.

That's actually a hilarious comment. Who's side are you on here?

OK, so look, I can take the offensive comments from both sides of this out of the equation and consider the 'who cares if we're accurately depicting anything' part into consideration and still I come up with, WHY do we WANT all the diseases to come into play in the same few eras? This is an honest question to which I haven't seen an answer but I assume Joseph has one since he set them up this way. I know that we don't want them to all be bunched into the same thresholds, that makes sense. But it doesn't seem related to when they get tech accessed.

Isn't a better design to have them spread out throughout various eras of triggering as much as we can justify? One of the whole points of including AIDS in the first place was that we'd have the justification to make at least one disease so recent.

If you're pointing out that Syphilis has only been with us for the last 1k yrs, great! Another justification to not have them all coming up in the first 2 eras! Some futuristic ones would be interesting to propose as well.

So getting the conversation more on track about design itself, what value is there in having them all come up at the very beginning as much as we can?


And @JosEPh_II now that I've calmed down I would normally go back and remove some angry comments I made but I want them there to explain WHY I got upset here. In particular, it does not help when you're getting angry at me when I've been as diplomatic as I can imagine being considering how irritated I felt. I have considered the possibility that AIDS WAS a divine strike against the gay community and was merely sharing the reason I discount that as possible, not trying to make you out to be an idiot, while at the same time feeling like to still maintain that view is astonishing that anyone still can. I realize this touches on entire worlds of disagreement that we share because this issue of Christianity being so anti-gay is probably the number one thing that keeps me from being able to accept the Bible as a truthful source in its entirety. I cannot find any rationale that supports that it isn't how God made these people so how could God want to make people to be what he hates? I don't see it as a choice and have gone through a lot of consideration to come to this conclusion. ALL that said, I realize that it's not entirely conclusively determined either way in a lot of ways, even given some of the brain and genetic research that has shown some evidence that it is not a lifestyle decision for many. It IS vaguely possible that the choice to engage in the activity or in fantasies about it is what can CHANGE the brain and genes, which we currently assume is a pre-existing condition rather than one subservient to the behavior. I don't think that we're wrong, but I see the faint possibility of the alternative. So I'm sorry for letting this become an argument about that, when really, I'm just saying I feel we should be spreading these things out across the tech tree with as much justifiable cause as can be found.

 

[raxo2222]

That's actually a hilarious comment. Who's side are you on here?

OK, so look, I can take the offensive comments from both sides of this out of the equation and consider the 'who cares if we're accurately depicting anything' part into consideration and still I come up with, WHY do we WANT all the diseases to come into play in the same few eras? This is an honest question to which I haven't seen an answer but I assume Joseph has one since he set them up this way. I know that we don't want them to all be bunched into the same thresholds, that makes sense. But it doesn't seem related to when they get tech accessed.

Isn't a better design to have them spread out throughout various eras of triggering as much as we can justify? One of the whole points of including AIDS in the first place was that we'd have the justification to make at least one disease so recent.

If you're pointing out that Syphilis has only been with us for the last 1k yrs, great! Another justification to not have them all coming up in the first 2 eras! Some futuristic ones would be interesting to propose as well.

So getting the conversation more on track about design itself, what value is there in having them all come up at the very beginning as much as we can?

I'm on side, that is correct at given moment (so you in this case), I was reminding, that you aren't completely infallible though.
Kation, Pepper and Toffer seems to be least infallible.

Also I meant that syphilis appeared in mid ancient era according to some hypothesis (there is other one, that says it wasn't a thing before Renaissance era).
Current unlock is around 1000 years before that - it isn't much of stretch for that time period, since from what I read its similar to other diseases.
Early hypothesis says disease existed in old world since ancient times but wasn't recognized for long time, and other hypothesis says this disease came to Europe from America in Renaissance.

And yes HIV was meant to be Modern era disease, others were originally across whole tech tree up to Modern too.
Diseases being unlocked in Prehistoric and Ancient era was done so this property would be dangerous.
One of those happened to be too modern for comfort. Oops

 

[Thunderbrd]

It would be arrogant of anyone to claim to be infallible so I am not even trying to say that. Has nothing to do with this so I am not sure why you feel it is important to try to make that point.

So they were all moved to the front of the tech tree to make disease more dangerous earlier eh? Hmm... interesting.

 

[Toffer90]

He didn't deny that? What about

Ah, I see,, I thought it was a general statement not directed at anyone specific as it didn't seem connected to anything that had been said before.
I haven't really paid much attention to the latest discussion in this thread, haven't interested me enough, so I probably missed the context.