Disinformation and Police Protests

[El_Machinae]

It's important to not assume that onto them. When I say that "taxes aren't theft, because they prevent your stuff from being stolen - you're paying for protection, and it's a great deal", I'm not suggesting that *I* would then loot your stuff if you didn't pay taxes. I'm just suggesting it would happen.

Maybe some of the proto-fascists are implying they'd assault antifa members if not for the police. But the memes I see are mostly implying that 'bad people' are being corralled and deterred by the police. The meme-sharer isn't saying anything about themselves.

[compare that to the horror you feel when people say "If there's no God, why wouldn't you just rape and steal as much as you want?" ... and then you're all "woah, didn't know that your belief in God was holding you back, let's change the topic"]

 

[Commodore]

The premise here is that the only thing standing between the average person and becoming a murderer is threat of punishment. This really makes me wonder about the people who are taking this position.

Well I know there's a lot of criminal activity I'd like to engage in (not murder) and the only reason I don't is because of the threat of punishment.

Also I think for the average person, it's not that they would go full-on psycho killer in the absence of law enforcement. I think it's more like we all have moments in our lives where we get so pissed off that we are ready to do something really bad and the only thing that talks us back from that ledge is that little voice in the back of our heads that says "if you do this, the police are probably going to come kick your skull in and haul you away."

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Well I know there's a lot of criminal activity I'd like to engage in (not murder) and the only reason I don't is because of the threat of punishment.

Also I think for the average person, it's not that they would go full-on psycho killer in the absence of law enforcement. I think it's more like we all have moments in our lives where we get so pissed off that we are ready to do something really bad and the only thing that talks us back from that ledge is that little voice in the back of our heads that says "if you do this, the police are probably going to come kick your skull in and haul you away."

Meh. Most people are held back in those moments by a combination of their humanity (doing great bodily harm to a fellow human being is actually widely held as distasteful) and their uncertainty that they would really get the best of it.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well I know there's a lot of criminal activity I'd like to engage in (not murder) and the only reason I don't is because of the threat of punishment.

Also I think for the average person, it's not that they would go full-on psycho killer in the absence of law enforcement. I think it's more like we all have moments in our lives where we get so pissed off that we are ready to do something really bad and the only thing that talks us back from that ledge is that little voice in the back of our heads that says "if you do this, the police are probably going to come kick your skull in and haul you away."

You could try to override that final obstacle by slightly altering your view and instead of identifying a threat of punishment, see it as a treat of punishment.

 

[Berzerker]

It's funny. I am a straight, white, (mostly)conservative, christian cismale and I've never gotten any impression that Cloud hates me, or even that she doesn't like me. Maybe there's another factor in play here...

an important one

For decades, actually even now, Republicans and the right wing have waged an unceasing attack on minorities, actually anybody that deviates from being a straight, white, conservative, christian cismale

Am i currently attempting to legislate them out of existence? Kill them by denying medical treatment to their diseases and ailments? Supporting and continuing historical discrimination against them?

Am i doing any of those things Berzerker?

I think I'm being very reasonable to a group Berzerker, who if they had their way, would have people like me disappear, either by not existing at all or being hung from the trees, so yes in comparison to their view on me; my stance of utter apathy towards them can be considered loving.

Hate and fear better describes Cloud's posts about these people than love and tolerance or utter apathy. I dont see this as some revelation or unexpected reaction, it would take a Christian worthy of the name to love them.

 

[Estebonrober]

an important one





Hate and fear better describes Cloud's posts about these people than love and tolerance or utter apathy. I dont see this as some revelation or unexpected reaction, it would take a Christian worthy of the name to love them.

That's great, hate and fear seems to be how the GOP sees everyone that is not ciswhite Christian. Maybe if they showed even a smidge of that supposed Christianity Cloud would not feel fear about his political status.

 

[Yeekim]

The premise here is that the only thing standing between the average person and becoming a murderer is threat of punishment. This really makes me wonder about the people who are taking this position.

1) Well, for most of human history, it has been quite common for "the average person" to kill another on occasion.
2) Even if only one in thousand became an unrepentant killer in the absence of threat of punishment, it would still have quite an effect on public safety.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

1) Well, for most of human history, it has been quite common for "the average person" to kill another on occasion.

Bull.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Hate and fear better describes Cloud's posts about these people than love and tolerance or utter apathy. I dont see this as some revelation or unexpected reaction, it would take a Christian worthy of the name to love them.

You're a joke, you know that right?

Conservatives have done nothing BUT attack me and people like me, this is what you and your ilk, your kind has bred and if I fear you it is because you have given me ample reason to.

But thats something you'd never be able to understand and you'll keep being a disengenuous liar and insist people dislike conservatives out of pure hate and not for the immense damage they're doing.

Need I remind people that it was the gop, the Conservatives that effectively condemned generations of the lgbtq community to either death or a life of misery and persecution?

And even with context supplied to you you won't be able to grasp it because you simply don't care and never will, nor do I think you care about much beyond supporting your political team like it's a sport; even with your supposed dislike of the drug war you still defend and run defense for a party that isn't interested in changing its stance on it even as the Democrats slowly change their stance.

Your opinions on me or what I think or feel are garbage and even when presented with evidence of you being factually, historically wrong you do not budge.

Just leave me the **** alone @Berzerker if you're going to continue down this path.

 

[Yeekim]

Bull.

State monopoly on violence is rather new thing. As are states, really.

You can quibble over the exact meaning of "common" and "average", but my point stands.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

State monopoly on violence is rather new thing. As are states, really.

You can quibble over the exact meaning of "common" and "average", but my point stands.

States are new, but wars aren't. Outside of wars, people killing people has never been particularly common, and wouldn't be if "law and order" were left without enforcement tomorrow.

 

[Yeekim]

States are new, but wars aren't. Outside of wars, people killing people has never been particularly common, and wouldn't be if "law and order" were left without enforcement tomorrow.

Can we settle on "magnitudes more common than today"?
See also: duels, blood feuds, etc.
Edit: nice article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_feuds_in_the_United_States

 

[Lexicus]

Despite Stephen Pinker's extremely poor scholarship there is not good evidence about prehistoric rates of interpersonal violence.

 

[Yeekim]

Despite Stephen Pinker's extremely poor scholarship there is not good evidence about prehistoric rates of interpersonal violence.

Just judge by historic rates then. Right up to XX century.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Can we settle on "magnitudes more common than today"?
See also: duels, blood feuds, etc.
Edit: nice article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_feuds_in_the_United_States

LOL...cites article listing four feuds (eight families) to support previous concerns regarding "one in a thousand."

One person in a thousand is more than has the guts to stand up and say "hey wait a minute." Being genuinely capable of killing someone is even more rare.

 

[Yeekim]

LOL...cites article listing four feuds (eight families).

If you have trouble counting, may I suggest using fingers as an aid?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you have trouble counting, may I suggest using fingers as an aid?

You can suggest it, but since you are currently defending a laughable position I'll probably ignore it for now. When you put some distance between yourself and "one person in a thousand would be a killer without fear of the law holding them back" bring it up again.

 

[Yeekim]

You can suggest it, but since you are currently defending a laughable position I'll probably ignore it for now. When you put some distance between yourself and "one person in a thousand would be a killer without fear of the law holding them back" bring it up again.

Sigh. And here I was thinking that I was making two decidedly non-contentious points in #467.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Sigh. And here I was thinking that I was making two decidedly non-contentious points in #467.

Well, one out of two ain't bad.

But even that one is misleading by accuracy.

"Even if only one in thousand became an unrepentant killer in the absence of threat of punishment, it would still have quite an effect on public safety." Obviously this is a true statement. It would also be a true statement that if one person in TEN thousand became an unrepentant killer it would have quite an effect on public safety. But neither statement is relevant to reality since both are predicated on VAST overestimations regarding how many people are likely to become unrepentant killers.

We are probably both guilty of hyperbole, but I think mine was done openly so not really egregiously. Sure, there are SOME people who are only held in check by law enforcement and fear of punishment and I tend to claim that said group is negligibly small. My bad.

 

[Yeekim]

In the post I originally responded to, you were speaking of "an average person", which was certainly a strawman - as you yourself said, even one in 10,000 would have "quite an effect on public safety".

In fact, I originally had intended to write "one in a hundred" (which according to wiki is the frequency of psychopathy in general population), but thought this might be pushing it, so I changed to "one in a thousand", to be absolutely on the safe side.

I really don't know what your declared belief of universal non-violent nature of men rests on. Feels like it is motivated by desire to downplay relevance of law enforcement in the light of current events, tbh.