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Disinformation and Police Protests

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Estebonrober, Sep 2, 2020.

  1. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I never said that. I said "oppose" was too strong of a word for a few vague sentences and those sentences are nothing like the later lies he told while trying to claim that he fervently opposed it. A couple days after the official invasion started, he was trying to sound optimistic about its successes in order to talk down interest rates (given his debt levels, that's not a surprise) as well as 'interest' in finding the WMDs. He basically knew nothing about the situation, and (wisely) said very little about it. It's not 'oppose'. I'd accept 'doubted'.

    Like I said, on any topic Trump will say a variety of things, sometimes contradictory or imprecise. Some people will freak out about the obvious lies. Some people will freak out about the evil implications. And some people will selectively retrofit what he said into something approximating the truth.
     
  2. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    I dont know what that 1st sentence means but Biden voted to invade Iraq and Lexicus' rebuttal is Trump gave her money. So all the people who gave Hillary money are in the same boat as Biden? Well, I wont deny the moral culpability of people who financially support and/or vote for warmongers, but Obama ran against Hillary by criticizing the Iraq War and so did Trump.

    The problem is Obama started bombing even more countries and Trump is at least trying to reduce our bootprint so by the time they faced re-election their true natures were exposed. I didn't say Trump hated war. I dont know how you define directly responsible, but voting to invade Iraq qualifies in my book. That was Biden ordering Bush to invade another country.

    Libya, Syria and Yemen started on Obama's watch. If Trump is to blame for what he inherited, does that mean you blame Obama for Iraq? Some people blame him for the rise of ISIS and there is some truth to that given how our attempt to overthrow the Syrian government fueled its growth, but ISIS or something similar was an inevitable result of overthrowing the Iraqi government. The former ruling class was not just gonna disappear, if they felt threatened by Shia rule they'd fight.
     
  3. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I just feel that the whole "Trump is anti-war" isn't based on reality, but is a kind of half-reason/projection to self-justify voting for him. Before he got elected it could stand more than now, cause he didn't cause deaths then.
    Biden wasn't ever president, so I am still not seeing how is directly to blame for more deaths than Trump is.
     
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  4. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    “Perhaps he shouldn’t be doing it yet. And perhaps we should be waiting for the United Nations.” - Donald Trump on invading Iraq

    Which one fits? He wanted to invade, he didn't want to invade, or he had no opinion on the matter. I read those words and I see someone trying to avoid a war... a war Biden voted for. In a debate about lesser evils, Biden loses. And we dont even need to examine the rest of his legislative history, it gets worse.

    Biden ordered Bush to invade Iraq, other than pulling the trigger it doesn't get more direct. Trump isn't anti-war, he's less pro war than Obama, Clinton and Biden. Trump gets blamed for covid deaths and Cuomo sent infected people back into nursing homes. Direct responsibility?

    I dont know what Trump did wrong, plenty if the critics are occasionally right. But I did see how the Democrats reacted, they were discouraging Trump from acting. Restrict travel? Bigot, xenophobe, racist. How would they have reacted if Trump was ordering the states around? Dictator, fascist, racist.

    The Democrats share the blame for the virus spreading, they were encouraging business as usual well into March while discouraging containment efforts.
     
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  5. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Yes, that's one of the few quotes available at the time. We are arguing about the definition of the word 'oppose', where I use it if there is an actual proactive stance taken commensurate with either how much you care or your ability to affect change. You're using it as the opposite of 'support', which I am not.

    Like, Trump supported the death penalty. He took out a full-page ad.

    He opposed NAFTA, he flirted with being a Reform candidate.

    Etc.

    You're calling a few weak sentences 'oppose', I guess as the opposite of 'support'. I just think the term is too strong for what he actually said. Two 'perhapses' from a guy who commonly exaggerates isn't really forceful language
     
  6. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    Classic form of disinformation is obfuscation. We are seeing it demonstrated quite well here actually. Thanks @Berzerker !
     
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  7. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    I know we're all trying to follow the "ignore him and he'll go away" principle here but I can't let this pass. This really hits a new height of just brazen lying. It's quite astonishing really.
     
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  8. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    Why is that weak? "Perhaps" was his politic way of disagreeing with people he didn't want to alienate. We're marching to war and Trump said let the UN deal with Saddam instead. How should I interpret that if not opposition to the war?

    Who told Bush to invade Iraq? Congress... Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton. The warmongers you support.
     
  9. Bugfatty300

    Bugfatty300 Buddha Squirrel

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    Oh well damn. Never new he went that far. Trump was a strait up Bertrand Russel. Totally not a low effort parrot of a popular opinion he heard repeated on the Democrat-leaning TV channels.

    What Should U.S. Do if Saddam Does Not Comply With UN Resolution?


    Public Support for Invading Iraq by Party



    God, Jesus, Cheney, Rumsfeld, climate change suppressing fossil fuel industry, the Republican party, pretty much the entirety of Trump's administration and pretty much the entirety of Trump's present day right-wing and conservative base who were voting age at the time. Seems like it was yesterday.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  10. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    GOP ran all three branches of government in 03'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108th_United_States_Congress

    Seriously, this level of disinformation is epic even for you. The only resistance at the time was form Democrats.
     
  11. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    True, the only real resistance came from Democrats, but it's also true Biden and Clinton voted for the war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autho...ilitary_Force_Against_Iraq_Resolution_of_2002

    Popular public opinion at the time may have influenced their votes, along with faulty intelligence from Powell. Had Trump been in a position to vote, who knows how he would have voted. What he says and what he does doesnt usually match.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  12. Oerdin

    Oerdin Deity

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    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  13. Bugfatty300

    Bugfatty300 Buddha Squirrel

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    Well that's the story until the hereto unreleased body cam gets leaked or FOIed. Usually cops post their snuff films ASAP the when they have an open and shut incident.

    See how fast that NYC video of the guy with the knife got out? But a wanted murder suspect who draws first? Nah, it's time to hush up, lock up the video and bring in detectives to start building up a legal case to cover the PD (jusr in case I'm sure).
     
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  14. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    "detectives say" is not "did indeed". But thanks for your ironic contribution to the thread :p
     
  15. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    Unless those detectives have video of him doing so why on God's green (burning) earth should I believe them?
     
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  16. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    Right. If there's one thing we've learned in the last few years, it's that police cannot be trusted when it comes to their accounts of interactions with civilians.

    ---

    The Washington Post, 17 September 2020 - "Officials in Rochester, N.Y., tried to withhold information about Daniel Prude’s death, documents show"
    So we can see that police officers are not only reflexively covering up evidence of their activity, they're working even harder now to cover up their misdeeds, specifically because of public outrage over them.

    Associated Press, 15 September 2020 - "Report: ‘Alarming’ rates of police and prosecutor misconduct in US"
    That's just in the last few days, folks.

    If I wanted to spend a couple of hours on it, I imagine I could produce a list of [stuff] that'd turn your hair grey. The murder of Laquan McDonald by Chicago police and the subsequent coverup, which may have gone all the way up to Chicago City Hall, is probably the most egregious recent incident that I can think of off the top of my head. I could also point to lesser problems, like Massachusetts shutting down an entire State Police barracks because something like 20 guys falsified overtime paperwork to the tune of ~$1,000,000.

    At this point, if you take cops' word for it, whatever "it" is, I figure you're either a cop yourself, you're related to someone who is or something like that, you generally support the official use of violence against anyone who's not toeing the line, or you just don't bother to pay attention. And honestly, if it's the last one, I'm not sure I'd blame you. It's pretty much nothing but bad news. I heard a woman on a radio program the other day, basically in tears because her 7-year-old daughter had watched the video of George Floyd's murder online and was really upset. The woman said she couldn't in good conscience tell her children that police were "the good guys" anymore. She didn't know what to tell them. This woman and her daughter were both White, fwiw. There's a certain comfort in naivete, I suppose, but only if you're White, don't have any mental illnesses, and don't raise your voice. But if you stick your head in the sand, there's a chance you might get [pinched] in the [butt].
     
  17. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    It's a lie that Congress "told Bush to invade Iraq," and it's also a lie that Congress consisted of Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton at the time. As others have pointed out the Republicans had a majority in both houses.

    I grow weary of repeating myself, but this is also a lie. It's not as bad of a lie as "Democrats forced Bush to invade Iraq" but Trump has not made any effort to "reduce our bootprint." Quite the contrary. He has pardoned war criminals and escalated every conflict in which we're involved abroad. He has relaxed the rules of engagement and sharply increased civilian casualties from US operations. This whole notion of Trump being anti-war in any way, shape, or form is complete and utter nonsense.
     
  18. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Maybe this quote is more clear:

    https://factba.se/transcript/donald-trump-interview-howard-stern-show-september-11-2002

    Howard Stern: "Are you for invading Iraq?"
    Trump: "Yeah, I guess so. You know I wish it was-I wish the first time it was done correctly."

    Doesn't sound like opposed to me. edit: it obviously isn't a full endorsement either.

    I guess the conclusion would have to be, Trump wasn't sure. Which is actually quite sensible. I wasn't sure either.

    Now I have to recuperate from calling Trump 2002 sensible, not something I'd imagine me saying about Trump Today. I'm glad it's nearly weekend.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  19. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    They voted for the AUMF, not the war itself. Clinton and others later stated that they would not have voted for the AUMF if they had known Bush would use it to take unilateral military action, ignoring the UN. How smart this was is debatable, but it is not exactly true that everyone who voted for the AUMF was voting for the war, or at least not the war as it was carried out by the Bush Administration.
     
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  20. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I would be willing to allow that his thinking clarified over time, so if he had started actually opposing it I would call it as I see it.

    Here's two days after the invasion starts

    "...Wall Street’s waiting to see what happens but even before the fact they’re obviously taking it a little bit for granted that it looks like a tremendous success from a military standpoint and I think this is really nothing compared to what you’re going to see after the war is over."

    "The main thing is to get the war over with and just make it a tremendously successful campaign and it will be very interesting to see what kind of weapons they find."

    It's vague best, not a surprise. We have to compare this to candidate Trump, who promised that there was piles and piles of evidence that he actually opposed the war. There isn't, just like there isn't evidence from his Hawaii birth certificate investigation
     
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