[R&F] District Timing

[MadMatt130]

I just picked up Rise and Fall and have played through a few games. My biggest issue that I have been running into is timing when to build districts. The method I have been following is to place them ASAP. Then once I have completed a monument and builder in the city I'll chop them out with the help of abusing overflow production. I've been watching civtrader6's videos (though SV one's are pre R&F) and watched a video by Rogue-star (but was in Chinese so I could understand explanation). Despite trying to incorporate their methods I still feel like I am slow to get my districts up and running.

Is there a certain civic I should aim to get or turn number before finishing them? Is it based on a build order?

Thanks for the help in advance.

 

[salvatorethesecond]

I totally understand your concern here. I've had it in many, many games. Let me say up front that I play on online speed—so just double the numbers if you play standard. I try and get my first district up by at least turn 30. Usually, I will go with an Encampment, Holy Site, or Campus. Campus almost always if I'm playing Diety.

However, I would say that my second district in my capital (or my highest production city) is the city center. And when I complete Pol Philosophy I immediately start building either Ancestral Hall or Warlord's Throne. Ancestral Hall is just such an amazing building that gives you such a head start. Getting a builder when you create a city is just magic.

For that reason, I try not to expand all that much before building Ancestral Hall. Before that, I like to put 3-4 cities down.

As for chopping, yes, chop away. I usually get an Archer down to 1 turn with Agoge and then chop the bad boy into a district. This usually does the trick of getting a district up ASAP. Does this help?

 

[BTSeven7]

You sound like you have the right strategy. I would be careful when comparing yourself to those videos bc the map and game setup make a huge difference. I spent a couple games going purely for speed and won a science victory in R&F in 190 turns, which I know people do faster but I am too lazy to be perfect or even move Magnus half the time. The map was Korea with a ton of trees and hills.

Anyway, some maps make you slow and those guys are recording their best games. Plus they are actually quite good at the one optimal strategy for that kind of speed.

 

[TheDouche]

I just picked up Rise and Fall and have played through a few games. My biggest issue that I have been running into is timing when to build districts. The method I have been following is to place them ASAP. Then once I have completed a monument and builder in the city I'll chop them out with the help of abusing overflow production. I've been watching civtrader6's videos (though SV one's are pre R&F) and watched a video by Rogue-star (but was in Chinese so I could understand explanation). Despite trying to incorporate their methods I still feel like I am slow to get my districts up and running.

Is there a certain civic I should aim to get or turn number before finishing them? Is it based on a build order?

Thanks for the help in advance.

As people have stated above, the timings are situational. There is no optimal timing that works for every map. You should however use the 50% melee/settler policy card when chopping.

Settling is a priority, and is more important than districts early. You can make exceptions when you get +3/+4 campuses, or need encampments for early wars. Also, distrcits get more expensive in time, so try to place them asap, than switch production to builder/monument.

Also keep in mind that the game is in a different state now than it was on civtrader's video (great stuff btw). Right now you need to aim for campuses with 3+ adjacency and to get population to 10 in as many cities as possible, so depending on the map it might be better to settle less but better cities.

All in all, there is no perfect strategy for all games. Just adapt

 

[MadMatt130]

Thanks for the help guys.

@TheDouche I understand the reasoning for 10 pop in cities but why the need for 3+ adjacency with campuses.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Thanks for the help guys.

@TheDouche I understand the reasoning for 10 pop in cities but why the need for 3+ adjacency with campuses.

It gives an additional +50% Science boost to Campus buildings when you run the Rationalism card.

 

[Mesix]

I totally understand your concern here. I've had it in many, many games. Let me say up front that I play on online speed—so just double the numbers if you play standard. I try and get my first district up by at least turn 30. Usually, I will go with an Encampment, Holy Site, or Campus. Campus almost always if I'm playing Diety.

However, I would say that my second district in my capital (or my highest production city) is the city center. And when I complete Pol Philosophy I immediately start building either Ancestral Hall or Warlord's Throne. Ancestral Hall is just such an amazing building that gives you such a head start. Getting a builder when you create a city is just magic.

For that reason, I try not to expand all that much before building Ancestral Hall. Before that, I like to put 3-4 cities down.

As for chopping, yes, chop away. I usually get an Archer down to 1 turn with Agoge and then chop the bad boy into a district. This usually does the trick of getting a district up ASAP. Does this help?

I like to expand through military conquest in the ancient and classical eras while there is little or no war weariness. I save the Government Plaza district for colonization of another continent to get the loyalty bonuses. This is also when I build the Ancestral hall and start cranking out settlers to take advantage of the bonuses and the additional governor slots.

 

[chazzycat]

I have some questions for the Ancestral Hall crowd. I play just on emperor, and I've found that when I try to build it, it can take too long and the good settling spots get taken. Especially in the absence of good chopping for Magnus. Seeing deity players using it effectively makes me think I am missing something.

For starters the eureka for State Workforce. I can't seem to get this in time, unless I skip the early settler and stay on 1 city. Are you plowing through regardless of the eureka, staying on 1 city to build an early district, or something else? Right now basically I only go for state workforce first if I pop the inspiration from a goody hut. Alternatively, the eureka for Early Empire is much easier. With two cities it's usually easy to get 6 pop in time. This also gives you access to +50% production to settlers, without spending 180 hammers (Gov plaza + AH).

If you're in the woods or jungle with Magnus, great, just chop the 180 hammers and keep chopping settlers too. But what if you're not? It seems to me that in that case, Early Empire/Colonization would be the superior choice. You have two cities instead of one, and can start cranking settlers much much earlier. The drawback being of course, no free workers. But what good is a free worker if there's nowhere to settle in the first place?

Am I missing something or is that about right? Do you only go for AH with a good chopping capital?

 

[MadMatt130]

I have some questions for the Ancestral Hall crowd. I play just on emperor, and I've found that when I try to build it, it can take too long and the good settling spots get taken. Especially in the absence of good chopping for Magnus. Seeing deity players using it effectively makes me think I am missing something.

For starters the eureka for State Workforce. I can't seem to get this in time, unless I skip the early settler and stay on 1 city. Are you plowing through regardless of the eureka, staying on 1 city to build an early district, or something else? Right now basically I only go for state workforce first if I pop the inspiration from a goody hut. Alternatively, the eureka for Early Empire is much easier. With two cities it's usually easy to get 6 pop in time. This also gives you access to +50% production to settlers, without spending 180 hammers (Gov plaza + AH).

If you're in the woods or jungle with Magnus, great, just chop the 180 hammers and keep chopping settlers too. But what if you're not? It seems to me that in that case, Early Empire/Colonization would be the superior choice. You have two cities instead of one, and can start cranking settlers much much earlier. The drawback being of course, no free workers. But what good is a free worker if there's nowhere to settle in the first place?

Am I missing something or is that about right? Do you only go for AH with a good chopping capital?

I've had the same issue of trying to figure out were AH fits in as well. It always seems that by the time I finish building it the early land grab is over. The only benefit is the extra titles. But I am far from an experienced player...

As far as State Workforce goes, most of the time I end up getting the eureka for State Workforce by waiting for a neighbor to build a district. Then I just take their city and pop the eureka...two birds one stone. But that doesn't help if you are going for a peaceful victory or no convenient neighbor to kill.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I have some questions for the Ancestral Hall crowd. I play just on emperor, and I've found that when I try to build it, it can take too long and the good settling spots get taken.

So, I think one thing is that, to my mind, there's no such thing as a "good settling" spot in Civ 6 other than for your second city, and maybe your third city. After that, pretty much any place you can put a city is fine.

Also, I don't find the AI that aggressive at settling, even on Deity. It's part of the reason I think people worry too much about rolling a start where they have a close starting neighbour. Yes, most of the time there will be a nearby AI civ. Once you find them, start settling in the other direction. I can't say you'll never have enough space, but I usually find there's more than enough space for all the cities I care to settle and then a few more I may or may not settle depending on whether I want the era score. For me, that's typically 10 to 15 cities.

As to delaying settling until AH, I haven't tried it, so I can't speak to specific tactics. I would think, though, that I'd still want to pump out at least 4 to 6 Settlers from my capital as soon as I get the +50% policy. So if I was going to go AH, I'd likely place the Government Plaza in my second (possibly third) city, then chop in the AH once available if it's coming soon enough for the back end of this initial wave of Settlers, or else rely on it's bonus only for my later Settlers.

But I'm far from a great player, and I prefer to go for the Amenity bonus building, as I like all of my cities to be ecstatically happy as often as possible.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

I rarely miss the State Workforce Eureka - I just get one of the 3 early district techs (Astrology, Writing, or Bronze Working), and place the district ASAP - then finish it when convenient. Quite often it seems the build time is only like 6 turns in my cap and often not much more in a decent 2nd city spot. If you chop with Magnus, or use any oveflow mechanics, it's very easy to get a one turn district this way. I often don't abuse overflow, and still finish it in time.

I often don't run the Settler card until after SWorkforce (almost always get Early Empire first, in case I want to use it early), because I want the Magnus promotion. Once in a while I build a Settler in my 2nd city too, but usually just crank out 2 in my cap as I head for Pol Phil. It feels right to start with 4 cities to max amenity efficiency. Then I make the hard decision of Ancestral Hall or the tall option one. In half my games I regret my decision, lol.

 

[Mesix]

The settling spot for my 2nd and 3rd cities are always defined by where the closest AI players placed their capital (and if I am slow, their second city).

I occasionally settle a second city before my first conquest if I have enough gold to buy a settler after first buying a worker. This is mostly decided by the number of barbarian camps I clear to train my troops before the first war.

as for getting to population of 6 for the inspiration, having a capital with a population of 4 and an AI capital with a population of 2 or more after taking it makes this inspiration pop almost every time (unless culture bonuses from natural wonders or CS are making the early civics go by too quickly).

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I often don't run the Settler card until after SWorkforce (almost always get Early Empire first, in case I want to use it early), because I want the Magnus promotion.

The Magnus no pop loss on Settler is a great promotion. Early on, though, I often find that the capital can produce a new Pop in almost exactly the same number of turns it can produce a new Settler. So the capital ends up staying on a steady state of about 4 Pop while I pump out a continual stream of Settlers. It depends, of course, on your mix of available tiles for your capital to work.

 

[MadMatt130]

The Magnus no pop loss on Settler is a great promotion. Early on, though, I often find that the capital can produce a new Pop in almost exactly the same number of turns it can produce a new Settler. So the capital ends up staying on a steady state of about 4 Pop while I pump out a continual stream of Settlers. It depends, of course, on your mix of available tiles for your capital to work.

I have started to pick up Liang as my first governor and then grab Magnus at the next opportunity. There is two reason for this. First, is I find Magnus is better used jumping city to city helping chop out districts or competitive wonders. The 2nd reason is by choosing Liang first and assigning her in my 2nd (or 3rd) city, she gets established right about the time I start producing builders in that city. That extra use for builders early on is huge in my opinion, more so than saving a pop in the capital. As @Trav'ling Canuck said, the capital usually reaches a "steady state" for population (growing 1 pop in the time it takes to produce a settler). By choiosing and upgrading Magnus with fisrt two titles you may save one or two pop. That one or two pop is only going to be producing 3 or 4 production per turn (assuming "steady state" is around 3 or 4 citizens which are working your good tiles already). Where as one extra chop on a builder in addition to 50% production overflow abuse and/or Magnus can give you many times the production of an extra citizen.

 

[chazzycat]

Ok some of these replies have helped, thanks. I think I was mistakenly assuming that the AH strategy meant delaying settlers by taking State Workforce before Early Empire, but it seems that's not the case.

But I'm far from a great player, and I prefer to go for the Amenity bonus building, as I like all of my cities to be ecstatically happy as often as possible.

Yeah, I also like the Audience Chamber. I guess that's part of why I am out of practice with Ancestral Hall. I like building up my cities and playing peacefully when possible, so the +4 housing from audience chamber is great. I've actually noticed when I use that, I end up loyalty flipping more cities from the AI thanks to my high population in the midgame.

So, I think one thing is that, to my mind, there's no such thing as a "good settling" spot in Civ 6 other than for your second city, and maybe your third city. After that, pretty much any place you can put a city is fine.

Huh. I never really thought about it that way...I guess I am picky with my settling spots. Don't you still need good food/production potential to build stuff? Unique luxuries? Fresh Water?

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I read a post by Victoria awhile back that stated she plops down cities wherever because all you need is 2 pop and a Campus.

I still have yet to figure out how to roll as fast as many of these players who seem to be able to finish very fast and chop perfectly.

Some games I just roll very fast but I still have many where things go wrong in the early game and I end up finishing in the mid to high 200s.

Not long ago I had a horrid Tundra start where I got boxed in pretty hard by two Civs.
I tried to find the Tundra Barb Camp because you always have a Tundra Barb Camp.
I went the wrong direction and they found me.
In about 3 turns I was in a very long Barb War against Horses, Horse Archers, Warriors and Archers. It was a bit of a nightmare.

My point is...
Even on Deity when I play on All Random/Pangaea/Stand/Stand I win a very high 90% of the time.
However I still find that I will have some issues with the Early Game depending on start location and Build Order.
It also seems to depend on just sheer randomness.
I will either get rolled by the AI or I will be in some mess with multiple Barb Camps.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Huh. I never really thought about it that way...I guess I am picky with my settling spots. Don't you still need good food/production potential to build stuff? Unique luxuries? Fresh Water?

To take these in order:

Food: depends on how big you want the city to be. If it's going to hold a campus (theatre for cultural victory), it's nice if the city could eventually get to size 10, so 20 potential food is nice, but not a must have (and almost any city can get this amount of food, considering in this game you can even farm deserts with no source of water ...) In any event, a pop 4 city is plenty useful, and only requires 8 food, at least 2 of which come from the city centre.

Production: the more you have, the faster you can complete your districts/buildings. But if you have very little, you can still get your districts/buildings out by (a) chopping, (b) having a city with a Factory within 6 tiles, or (c) buy them (use Reyna for districts).

Unique luxuries: nope. That's a Civ 5 thing, where a new city that didn't get you a new unique luxury was a potential liability.

Fresh Water: definitely not. You can get any city up to size 10 with no starting housing, and you can get a productive city going with a lot less than 10 population. Getting one less city than you could have had because you went for fresh water is very unlikely to work out in the long run.

 

[ezzlar]

With the risk of being a noob I would say that the AH is a noob trap. Settling spots should mostly be taken by the time it becomes reasonable to build one. I always play on very small maps (tiny or duel) with extra AI:s so this might not be the case when playing larger maps.

 

[Victoria]

Everything is situational.

For example the coliseum is just such good value it is hard to turn down but to get good value you need to cluster your cities.... So early scouting and understanding if Coliseum and pyramids are possibilities is very important. It is decisions like these that make you choose different paths.
Chopping for 100% is just so strong but its rare you get a good run. Good choppers are not always chopping with bonus but something like god of the forge just encourages you to.
Hell, surrounded by lots of civs, warlords seems a better option
There is just a lot to consider, the fast game has more need for right choices and chopping is often a judgement of when.

I guess for me the best game was when there was a flow, things felt like they had good timing. That is when you want to replay and understand what went well with what.

Bottom line is your culture is important early, you want your key districts placed before you get too much tech/civics then as you hit feudalism shove in those tiny civics as you spawn builders then the chop is strong as you have many civics. To do this you want to pump out settlers ASAP and grab any bit of culture you can, the faster you get to your big chops the better. And you use those chops to get in your key districts and buildings very fast. Naturally there is early chops, there is balance of requirements.

One can say Rome is strong due to the early culture... just do not overestimate it. It comes so fast you often cannot get eurekas you would have got do the value of the earlies is often only 60% not 100%. Getting a couple of early culture CS or a good wonder placement and you have similar culture. Romes real strength comes in multiple early advantages like roads and legions.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I just want to roll to Domination Victory like the pros on here.
I must be misjudging my situations.
Either I can't pump out the cities fast enough or I get bogged down in some stalemated war.

Other times I will play peaceful and do a late war push but it seems I have waited too long and the defense/walls are a problem.

It isn't that I won't win the games.
I just feel like winning from turn 250 to 275 is proving that I am doing things very wrong.