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Dividing North America

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by humble serf, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    @Greywulf Overall I'd agree with your list, except personally I'd leave out California, the Arctic, and possibly the Great Basin in favor of additional Northeastern and/or Southeastern tribes. The East was densely populated and comparatively advanced while California was almost as primitive as the Arctic, and the Great Basin had virtually no settled populations.

    If the Great Basin were included again, however, I think I'd go with the Shoshone's cousins the Ute just to have someone different. Chief Walkara is the likeliest leader, but Chipeta might be an option for a female leader--she advised her husband Chief Ouray, served as a delegate to Washington, and continued to lead her people after the death of her husband.
     
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  2. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    I still believe that the Inuit would offer a very niche and unique play style, so I personally do not want to rule them out, but I understand. It's very unlikely that we will get representation for each region anyway, so I don't mind reducing that list.

    Great suggestion for a female leader too, so thank you for sharing that!
     
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  3. TahamiTsunami

    TahamiTsunami Chieftain

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    @Greywulf I personally wouldn't mind seeing some of those groups like Inuit only as long as it didn't come at the expense of 1 of the more deserving groups. Regardless, feel free to speculate about how you'd design any of the NA civs. As @humble serf said its what this thread is for!

    @Zaarin I've mentioned how I'd want 2 Northeastern (Iroquois and Powhatan) and 2 Northwestern (Tlingit and Nuu Chah Nulth). If you don't mind me asking, who do you have in mind for a 2nd Southeastern civ?
     
  4. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    One could argue that the Inuit are at least as deserving, if not considerably more so, than the Scythians or the Huns. At least the city names would be legitimate Inuit community names as well, rather than borrowed from other civs ~ actually there is quite a long list of names of towns and settlements of the Inuit.
     
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  5. TahamiTsunami

    TahamiTsunami Chieftain

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    I had meant 1 of the more deserving NA groups that have been discussed in this topic (like the Tlingit or Choctaw) but I do see your point. I don't think I'd prefer the Inuit over Scythia (despite the issues they admittedly have) but I could see favoring them over the Huns and many of the blob civs that have appeared before. They'd certainly be a much better choice for a North American civ than the blob Native American civ that was in Civ 4! You've definitely got me curious about seeing some Inuit designs.
     
  6. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Yes, there are other civs I would myself prefer to see first, but I just find niche civs delicious, even if they are a bit obscure or unlikely otherwise. I do think that the Inuit would have been a better choice, and a more interesting choice, than Scythia or the Huns, but the fact that they have added those civs before means that there is a chance for civs like the Inuit to make an appearance...kinda opened the door for a lot of other options.
    But yeah, let's have the Inca and Maya first, and perhaps the Muisca as well.

    There's been quite a few interesting designs for the Inuit that have come up over time, and a few of those ended up as mods, but what I like about what they generally do is that they focus on making the snow or ice tiles beneficial in some way, such as providing a little food. Also seen an idea where they get a unique resource of seals to harvest ~ of course, they could add seals for anyone to have access to as well, but we have seen unique resources before, but for CS's.

    Here's some links for ye for some of the different ideas that have come up for the Inuit...
    http://civilization-v-customisation.wikia.com/wiki/The_Inuit_(Ekeuhnick) / Civilopedia: https://civ5customization.gamepedia.com/The_Inuit_(Ekeuhnick)/Civilopedia
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=105558749
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...tion-igloo-ui-terrain-rebalancing-ect.511260/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/inuit-civilization.473872/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gedemos-civilizations.521722/page-4

    They happen to also be one of the most discussed obscure civ ideas, so I think that's very encouraging.
     
  7. Patine

    Patine Chieftain

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    Settlements that are recent renamings in Inuit languages of European or American built "hovel-complexes" to stick the Inuit on in squalid conditions. These aren't the names of old or traditional Inuit settlements, of which no permanent ones existed prior to colonization. That's a problem with the "long list of names of towns and settlements of the Inuit" you're referring to.
     
  8. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Well that's depressing.
     
  9. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Well, geographically I'd consider the Powhatan, being located in Virginia, as Southeastern, though culturally they're definitely more closely related to the Northeastern Algonquian cultures than the Mississippian-dominated Southeast. So if we consider Powhatan Northeastern, then probably the best choices for a second Southeastern civ would be the Natchez (another post-Mississippian civ that we can link to a specific mound site), the Pawnee (though again, do we need another horse raider civ?), or the Calusa (pros: not related to the Mississippians, probably the best known indigenous peoples of Florida; cons: we don't know that much about them, we know only a handful of words from their language, and they were relatively primitive). If we consider the Powhatan Southeastern, then probably the best choice for a second Northeastern civ would be the Massachusett.
     
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  10. Patine

    Patine Chieftain

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    It's debated, from what I've read, whether the Powhatan Confederacy was actually a "culture" or "ethnicity" itself, or just a "an alliance of convenience to react to and deal with the strange White People coming out of the sea with a more organized and unified face" and otherwise were possibly quite disparate, perhaps even including tribes tied to Algonquians, Mississippians, and others, only unified for a purpose. I mean, the only referential name we have for them is after Chief Powhatan, one of the most notable leaders (and the father of Pocahontas).
     
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  11. Patine

    Patine Chieftain

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    The Seminole would be my personal choice here. Unlike many indigenous people's of the modern United States, they were never completely defeated by the U.S. Army in the "Indian Wars," and while some were forced to move to Oklahoma, others held firm to their land in Florida despite repeated attempts to forcibly move them, and their descendants are there to this very day.
     
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  12. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    I mean, of course they were a confederation of ~40 different tribes, but most of them were closely related southern Algonquian peoples, probably more closely related than the Five Nations Iroquois (much more closely related once you add in the more distantly related Tuscarora) or even the Pan-Mayan civ we'll hopefully inevitably get, at least as closely as our Pan-Greek friends. And again I can't think of a more charismatic or "big personality" Native American leader than Chief Powhatan (Wahunsenacawh).

    They were also just a splinter cell of the far more politically significant Creek, who would be my first choice for the Southeast were it not for their lack of good leader choices. Plus when TahamiTsunami asked for a second Southeastern civ (the Choctaw being probably the best all around first choice taking leaders into consideration), I figured it went without saying that a second Muskogean-speaking civ was out of the question. The Natchez are probably related to the Muskogeans (see Mary Haas) but distantly.
     
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  13. Patine

    Patine Chieftain

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    Oh, I don't know - we have quite a few Germanic-, Italo-Romance-, and Semitic-speaking civ's as it is, so I'd never thought having multiple civ's speaking different languages in the same linguistic grouping was ever off the table.
     
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  14. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    In an ideal world, it wouldn't be. In the real world where we'll be lucky to get two civs indigenous to North America, I'd prefer to maximize how many language families are represented. (Also, I wouldn't call two Semitic-speaking civs [one of which shouldn't be] as "quite a few," though we can probably expect two more: Carthage and Babylon. I'd love to see Algonquian and Iroquoian and Muskogean and Wakashan and Tsimshian and Na-Dene as well-represented as Italic and Germanic, but I'm not holding my breath.)
     
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  15. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    Here is my updated ideas for the Iroquois:
    Iroquois Empire (Iroquois)
    Leader: Deganawida (The Great Peacemaker)- As much as I would want Jigonhsasee, I think he was easier to make up an ability and add on to her.
    Agenda: Haudenosaunee- Likes to be allied to as many civilizations as possible. Dislikes civilizations who will not want to make an alliance.
    LA: Peace Gathering-May make an alliance with another power at Political Philosophy and gain extra faith with trade routes to allies. May declare peace faster when at war.
    UA: Three Sisters- Woods provide extra food as well as food when harvested. Extra food when building three adjacent farms at start of game and gold.
    UU: Mohawk Musketeer (replaces Musketman) Moves faster through forests and can pillage trade routes using one less movement point. (With one model obligatory having a tomahawk as well to use as a finishing move):)
    UI: Longhouse- (Replaces Granary) +3 Housing and gain +1 production.

    Hopefully this can blend the confederacy making that they are known for along with the expansion and subjection of other tribes around them while also giving them some trading bonuses.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
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  16. Patine

    Patine Chieftain

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    A note about "may declare peace faster when at war." The Iroquois, as a whole, were also, after they'd actually into war with the group enough times, well-known to develop blood vendettas that lasted generations, even centuries, such as, historically, with the Abnaki, the Lenape, and, to a lesser extent, the Anishinaabe, so their reputation of a desire for peace and forgiveness after a war is not entirely true - this reputation mostly comes from the Objibwa, the Miq'maq, and the Erie (the latter of whom much later joined the Confederacy, in fact, as it's sixth member), and the experiences of European and American settlers, to be honest.
     
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  17. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    I agree with Patine. Personally this feels stereotyped and doesn't at all reflect the history of the Iroquois, either as shrewd politicians who used peace as a weapon to keep their foes off balance or as brutal and effective warriors. Also the Three Sisters ability as written here is essentially the opposite of Three Sisters farming: Three Sisters allowed small-scale horticulture to be more efficient; you'd never have seen large European-style fields. But it still required clear-cutting forests.

    You're thinking of the Tuscarora, another Iroquoian people from Virginia, whom the Iroquois raided but never had a blood feud with. After being devastated by the Iroquois, the Erie and Neutral were absorbed into the Huron after they reorganized as the Wyandot, who in turn would largely be (forcibly) assimilated into the Iroquois, mostly the Seneca and Mohawk. IMO that is probably the most distinctive feature of the Iroquois that just begs to be made into a civ ability: mourning wars, taking and adopting enemy captives to replace war dead. (See my post on the Iroquois above for how I'd implement it.)
     
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  18. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    The whole making peace faster was something I wanted to give to the specifically to the leader without trying to make it seem they were historically peaceful throughout there entire history. Originally I also had it to where he would get major warmonger penalties if he declared a war and wondering if that would make a difference. I wasn't at all trying to make him or the Iroquois becoming like Cyrus. On that note I have thought that the agenda might be a little too close to Poundmaker so I might add " Likes civilizations that are willing to ally with them and trade with them during their alliance. Dislikes civilizations that will not ally with them or trade with them during their alliance. "

    @Zaarin How would you incorporate a Three Sister's ability?
     
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  19. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    It might not fit Great Peacemaker exactly, but there's always the agenda I gave them that fits the civ as a whole very well: "Likes civs that declare war on or denounce their allies." This is essentially how the Iroquois carved out a space for themselves among their French, English, and Dutch neighbors while the Algonquian and other Iroquoian peoples of the region were exterminated or marginalized.

    Bonus and luxury resources that give food give additional food OR farms not adjacent to other farms gain additional food.
     
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  20. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    Thanks for the input. Honestly I only knew that the Three Sisters farming concept was that all three crops were closely farmed together so they only way I thought it could work was letting them get basically the benefits of what you get from Feudalism only earlier. I think this might sound good:
    Woods provide an extra food. Farms give additional food if not adjacent to another farm and another gold if it is a bonus resource. I still want to incorporate them getting their food from woods as well.
     
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