djb-3: "Persian Hegemony"

[heikeott]

Earlier you guys were urging me to take a shot - I hope you won't regret it!

640AD -- micromanaged production & city moods.
650AD -- Arbela and Tarsus completes aqueducts, start marketplaces. Advised Romans are building Leo's. Pliny completes history; most powerful listed as follows: 1 Persians, 2 Greeks, 3 Romans, 4 Indians, 5 Chinese, 6 Japanese, 7 Egyptians, 8 Babylonians. Sent a few immortals from the stack of doom to lounge on the hill overlooking Ravenna.
660AD -- Forest near Antioch harvested. Persepolis finishes Cathedral, set to Leo's - I always try to get that one. Pasarg. completes temple starts marketplace. Advised Indians are building Leo's.
670AD -- Several cities expand. Advised Elephantine has completed Sun Tzu's. Everybody & their brother now building Sistine & Leo's.
680AD -- traded Cleo Education for Printing Press, straight up. Then sold PP to everyone who didn't have it.
690AD -- Babylon finishes aqueduct, starts marketplace.
700AD -- Antioch completes marketplace, starts granary. Hamadan completes temple, starts aqueduct.
710AD -- Ellipi completes FP, starts marketplace rather than aqueduct because needs happiness adjustment before further growth.
720AD -- Nineveh completes aqueduct, starts marketplace.
730AD -- bought gunpowder from India for 380 gold (best deal), sold or traded to everyone who didn't have it. Discovered saltpeter in desert N of Arbela. Start researching banking as AI usually doesn't IMO.
740AD -- Egypt wants to trade WMs - I agree. Pasarg. completes marketplace, begins harbor. Ellipi expands. El-Amarna finishes granary, starts marketplace.
750AD -- Several cities expand. Samaria builds marketplace, starts aqueduct. Citizens expand palace. Advised Delhi completed Sistine. Susa would finish Leo's in 20 turns as opposed to 27 for Persep, so switch Susa to Leo and build University in Persepolis. Micromanage citizen moods in several cities.
760AD -- Persepolis completes Univ, make 1 unhappy worker a scientist for WLTKD. Start colosseum. Gordium builds marketplace and they are all happy now - start aqueduct. Checked in with all civs & traded or gave map. No new techs.
770AD -- Have to renegotiate with Greece for wines. Gave gems + incense + 20g. Arbela completes marketplace, begins granary. Antioch finishes granary, starts colosseum. Advised Athens completes Leo. Checked in with all civs but no new techs & nothing to switch to. Set Susa to build Cathedral.
780AD -- Sidon builds temple, still pretty corrupt so start courthouse.
790AD -- Susa builds cathedral, adjust production to food & start granary. Tarsus finishes marketplace, about to run out of land tiles to work so start harbor. Bactra builds marketplace, starts aqueduct. Road to saltpeter completed.
800AD -- busy, busy, busy...
810AD -- Japan trades WM. Sardis completes aqueduct, starts marketplace. Pasarg. builds harbor, starts granary. Ellipi builds marketplace, begins aqueduct.
820AD -- Traded or sold WM to all civs. Nobody's polite yet, what did we DO?? Noticed that Babs need horses but no trade route yet. India has Chemistry will sell for 1460g - that's a bit steep isn't it? will wait...
830AD -- Babylon completes marketplace, still corruption starts courthouse. Arbela finishes granary starts musketman.
840AD -- Persepolis completes colosseum, starts musketman. Susa finishes granary, starts marketplace. El-Amarna builds marketplace, starts courthouse.
Game Saved.

I didn't do anything really critical, except miss getting Leo, but I think that was already missed when I picked up the game. I think maybe I managed not to make any big mistakes that will hurt anyone down the road, and I did my part to try to improve the other civs' attitudes towards us and keep the techs traded up.

Heike
Umm.. will upload file, even after zip too big to attach. Don't know how to link to it? will upload as Xerxes 840AD.sav.zip.

 

[dojoboy]

Heike, look here to upload files larger than 100kb. How is your husband doing? Hope well.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41653

 

[heikeott]

Saved Game

Well, I did that, but I still am having trouble making a link to it. There is nowhere to click on the whole thing, only one part or the other. Anyway, it IS there in the uploads3 folder called Xerxes, 840 AD.SAV.zip.

Heike

 

[dojoboy]

I don't understand what you mean. The link, you made, worked for me.

 

[tao]

The download of Heike's file was possible, but I couldn't open the file after downloading with Mozilla, definitely the browser of choice for CFC, because you can open all the different topics in tabs .
Regrettably the file could be opened, when IE was used for downloading.
Best to use .sit or .zip.

 

[heikeott]

Okay, I'm scratching my head. Maybe I should translate that back to German and see if it reads any better??

I DID zip it, sorry I don't have Mozilla. Once I have zipped the file, it shouldn't matter what application I use to upload it? It's all the same file! I don't usually use IE, but last night I couldn't get Safari, or Netscape, or Omniweb to download the file last night, so I still had IE open when I went to upload the save.

So are you saying you could, or could not, open the save? Do you need me to email it to you after I get home this evening?

PS Mozilla is not the only browser that has tabbing! Surely Safari will have it before long in one of the updates, although I am not sure why you think it's so necessary.

Edited: forgot which thread I was in & had to fix file references.

 

[heikeott]

So, are we stalled again, or are you all so horrified by my 20 turns that you are "speechless" ???

Tao, Dojo, no comments??? I've been waiting for the ...

 

[MacBaldrick]

I'll give it a go over the weekend.

Thoughts - I have had a look at the resource continent (+ several smaller islands) by turning off the fogofwar feature. Is this regarded as cheating in an essentially training OSG ?

It doesn't show the hidden resources but I can guess oil in the dessert and rubber in the jungles. Where is aluminum & uranium generally found ? The second tip off is when the AI builds a city in a seemingly ?stupid? location - will placing a city nearby and load in culture to achieve a flip work or do we wait for an opportunity to conquer with local forces kept near (in city with road towards target).

It will take a sizable armada to grab many of the best locations - we should start producing / holding settlers in 'factory' cities (or calculate when to switch production in lots of cities) and calculate how many galleons we need. Do we need more harbour cities ? Workers we have but more can be used to accelerate pop growth and build roads to resources and link cities in main landmass.

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by MacBaldrick
I have had a look at the resource continent (+ several smaller islands) by turning off the fogofwar feature. Is this regarded as cheating in an essentially training OSG ?

Cheating? Yes, I would say so, but not punishable by death. As long as you don't give it away, I think its fine - for yourself. I don't see OSG's as trainers, but that's not to say learning doesn't take place.

 

[MacBaldrick]

Only doing what the AIs seem to do. - it was the idea behind risking an early crossing with Galleys to get an early look - 2nd thoughts not a bad idea but leave it to < 20 turns before magnetism so you don't have to stop trading maps.

Anyway if I complete the next round tonight it will be up to someone else to find good city locations over the next 20 turns - so no mega advantage. The Caravels (min 2) will hopefully be in place at the edge of the ocean NE, NW, SE & SW when Magnetism is researched so we should get there first (even with the Caravel's 3 tiles / turn - we lose Gt L rather than wait for Galleons.

I found six sites with min. five resources each so it is worth looking very carefully. However they are not surprisingly spead out so a strategy to use them would have to be sea trade based (rush harbours), push out 1 / 2 cities to grab land and act as a buffer zone to the each core city. After you deal with the barbarian hordes of course.

Building a single large colony is not so advantageous without the FP.

 

[Txurce]

There are two logical approaches toward garnering needed resources on the new hemisphere: settle as much of it as possible, or wait until the resources you need are visible, then take them. The second approach is much, much easier. You're either there ahead of the AI, or you capture their obviously isolated resource cities.

 

[tao]

Originally posted by heikeott
Tao, Dojo, no comments???

You ask it, you get it. I was busy doing GOTM9.

On a global scale, I miss a clear mission statement at both the begin and end of your turn: What did you want to accomplish? What road do you want the next player to follow?

When do we want to start researching? This clearly should influence, whether we build libraries/universities or not(yet).

You have accumulated a large amount of cash. (What's the female equivalent of a Dagobert? ) Could you give a reason, why you didn't establish embassies with all civs? Why you didn't trade for the "missing techs"?

Where are the designated cities (and pre-builds) for Copernicus', Magellan's, Newton's?

We know about the importance of getting to the other continent. Do we have a plan when/where to build/upgrade ships (harbours!) and expedition force (settlers, defenders, attackers)?

Do we have a plan, how to settle the continent? Txurce gave two possibilities. I played the map on emperor and did it like this: build beachhead, let barbs promote units to elite, build city in central strategic location, make war to AI(s), generate leader, build FP (we would have to move our Palace; prepare for it!), and the new continent became a power center, allowing me an easy conquest victory.

Now let me raise some details:

All cities stalled at size 6 should hurry aqueduct. I would have hurried also some granaries.

Persepolis; we research at 10%, therefore researcher is wasted. Note that the capital can easily bear some unhappines without negative effects.

Sardis: market should have been before aqueduct.

Susa: next player should mm to coincide pop growth with market

Arbela; do we need the musket? what for? or should we build cathedral?

I would distribute the unit stack near Samaria to 2-3 locations to faster extinguish possible invadors.

Antioch: why do we build colosseum and not cathedral? maybe we should irrigate mined grassland and mine mountain?

Sidon needs wltkd, not courthouse.

Ellipi has FP, and therefore market was NOT needed before aqueduct. Why did't you hurry the aqueduct?

Tarsus: I would build cathedral first. Location is not very good for harbour.

Hamadan has plenty of food. I would mine the irrigation.

El-Amarna is 5 tiles from FP; I question the value of a courthouse.

Gordium: mm for more shields, less food. Better: hurry aqueduct.

Never give maps for free, always ask for exchange.

 

[MacBaldrick]

840 AD to 1030 AD

Well here is my take on the preparation for invasion. Hope you don't think its too long.

Tried to practice some of the tips being offered (plus those in War Acadamy) but will be far from perfect. Long term Strategy is to place min. six caravels (Settler + Worker + Musketman / Knight) at points nearest to six key sites on resource continent & islands. As soon as trade for Magnetism move Caravels across ocean (slower due to loss of Gt Lighthouse) and start search for good city sites with multi-resources. Repeat in second wave to lesser sites with upgraded Galleons with knights / musketmen / workers - with Frigates to defend. Build up resource rich sites (trade with rushed harbour), add 1/2 outlying cities and await arrival of later resources to be grabbed from other Civs. Note odd locations of AI cities, e.g. dessert / jungle - sure sign of future oil / rubber resources. This will take several 20 turn sessions.

840 AD - Switch Persep. to harbour (for fast production of ships) and emphasis resources over food as getting near 12 limit. Switch Antioch to University (don?t need happiness as city is at 6 pop with WLTK - use as unit factory). Switch Tyre to Cathedral (get happiness + WLTK to increase production then develop). Switch El-Amorna to Library to improve culture (corruption not bad so Courthouse not urgent). Unstack immortals from mountaintop and move to border with Revenna and locations for later pickup by ships. Move one horsemen to cover tiles outside our borders (stop landings) and to city with baracks for future upgrade to knights / cavalry.

850 AD - Reallocate workers.

860 AD - Pasarg. builds Granary - set for Library. Antioch gets University, set for Knight . Tarsus builds Harbour - set for settler (to build up colonists). Samaria produced Aquaduct, set for Library. Upgrade units in Antioch & Susa (Horse > Knight, Pike > Musketman) - continue to recycle units thought barracks cities.
Trade India WM + 480 g for Astronomy. Trade Astronomy to Japan for WM + 20 gold & trade Babylon Engineering for 1gpt + 20 g .

870 AD - Continue unit upgrades.

880 AD - Neveha produces Marketplace, set to Caravel, El Amarna produces Library, set to Cathedral - create entertainer to keep WLTK going. Trade terratory maps with Japanese & Indians for a few gold - keep them happy. Others want 550 g for Chemistry - wait. Palace improved by happy populace.

890 AD - Persep produces Harbour, set Caravel. Pasag. produces Library, set to Caravel. Ellipi producesa Aquaduct, set to Granary. Gordium produces Aquaduct, set to Caravel. Samaria produces Library, set to Barracks for upgrade in N of continent. AIs pursuing JS Bach.
Trade Furs to Greece for 8 gpt.

900 AD - Move Galley to Tarsus for upgrade.

910 AD - Ellipi produces Granary, set to Cathedral. Hamadam produces Aquaduct, set to Cathedral. Load Settler + musketman on Caravel. in Tarsus. Hurry Caravel in Gordium (need more shipping in East).

920 AD - Rome tries to trade Music Theory for Astronomy, offer 300 gold - accepted - Aghhh Mistake. Babylon produces Courthouse, set to Cathedral. Persep produces Caravel, set to Caravel (need min of six). Pasarg. builds Caravel , set to Settler. Susa produces Marketplace, set to Settler. Antioch produces Knight, set to Knight. Gordium produces (rushed) Caravel, set to Caravel. Bacrta produces Aquaduct, set to Settler. Palace improved again !

Increase science to get Banking in 4 turns. Buy Banking from Greeks for WM + 8 gold ! Switch science to Economics to get John Smith?s (saves money).

930 AD - T10 - Neneveh completes Caravel, set to Caravel. Load up Caravels and sail to jump off points.

940 AD - Persep builds Caravel, set to Settler. Sardis produces Marketplace, set to Courthouse, Pasgar. builds Settler, set to Cathedral. Bacra builds Settler, set to Harbour. Continue loading Caravels.

950 AD - Tarsus produces Worker, set to Caravel, Gordium produces Caravel, set to Caravel. Samaria produces Settler, set to Bank.

960 AD - Confrontation with Egypt on the high seas, entered their territory - trade WMs. Persep. produces Settler, set to Bank. Continue loading up Caravels and pre-positioning them.

970 AD - Nineveh builds Caravel (rushed), set to Cathedral. Arbela builds Cathedral, set to Musketman. Antioch builds Knight, set to Knight.

980 AD - Several WLTKs end. Trade furs with Babylon for 30g. Major Civ?s unwilling to trade other luxuries.

990 AD - Discover Economics, go for Democracy. Sell Economics to India for Chemistry + 120G + WM. Buy Physics from Greece for Economics + 230g + WM. Buy Metalurgy from Egypt for Economics + 260 g + WM. Sell Economics to China for 60g + 1 gpt. Buy Magnetism from Japan for Economics + 530g + WM. Sell Magnetism to Egypt for 320g.

Set Science to 10% and Luxury to 20 %. Switch Persepolis to Adam Smith?s with micromanagement (MM) to generate max. resources (22). Rush Galleons in Tarsus, Gordium and Sidon. (MM for gold/food not resources - 1 turn only).

1000 AD - Move Caravels towards Resource Continent.

1010 AD - Galleons produced, Tarsus set to Frigate, Sidon to Settler, Gordium to Frigate. Load Galleons. MM El Armarna for food (1 turn from Cath). Trade Dyes to Japan for 1 gpt.

1020 AD - El-Almarma builds Cathedral, set to Bank. Start exploring new lands - initial landing may have to be on hill / mountain to deal with bards. before founding city ? Not my problem.

1030 AD - Further exploration.

File uploaded as Xerxes 1030 AD.SAV.ZIP

Future Science Strategy - Stay with Democracy or go for Theory of Gravity to get to Industrial Ages ? I think we buy ToG and switch to democracy after oil / rubber appear and are secured (may need war) then go for growth - wealth with Democracy.

Create and push settlers into Persepolis to shorten time to Adam Smith, a must have with our peaceful / trading (harbours in new cities) strategy ? No trading of maps from now till AIs have explored themselves. Rebuild home military.

Mistakes - among the many should have pre-built for Adam Smiths.

ENJOY

 

[heikeott]

On a global scale, I miss a clear mission statement at both the begin and end of your turn: What did you want to accomplish? What road do you want the next player to follow?

I was building infrastructure. Unless we wanted to go to war imminently, not much else we could do. We are nowhere near the required techs to head for the other continent.

When do we want to start researching? This clearly should influence, whether we build libraries/universities or not(yet).

Don't ask ME. I would have been doing research from the beginning, but it was my understanding that that isn't practical at this level because you can't beat the AI, so we were buying and trading for tech. THAT's why I didn't build any libraries!! Why build libraries if we aren't researching?

You have accumulated a large amount of cash. Could you give a reason, why you didn't establish embassies with all civs? Why you didn't trade for the "missing techs"?

The cash is because science spending was set so low. What was I supposed to do with the money? I thought we were going to buy tech with it. I did buy whatever was available when I could, but the only tech anyone had for sale that I didn't get was Chemistry, and I stated that I didn't get it because it was too expensive (I thought). It was near the end of my 20 and I didn't think much would be lost if someone decided to get it 2 or 3 turns later... Oh, and as regards the embassies, I didn't realize that we didn't have them. I didn't meet any new civs, so I assumed we already HAD embassies since we were in communication with everyone. Guess I should have checked - my oversight.

Where are the designated cities (and pre-builds) for Copernicus', Magellan's, Newton's?

HUH? Why would we build those when we aren't doing our own research? And how can you pre-build when there's nothing to build?

We know about the importance of getting to the other continent. Do we have a plan when/where to build/upgrade ships (harbours!) and expedition force (settlers, defenders, attackers)?

We have harbors and I added a few. We can't build any ships that will get us there until Magnetism, and that didn't appear to be anytime soon. Is there some advantage to building caravels or galleys and upgrading them over waiting to build galleons?

All cities stalled at size 6 should hurry aqueduct. I would have hurried also some granaries.

If we spend all our gold hurrying stuff, what are we going to use to buy tech with? With Chemistry selling for over 1400g, I think we will need some gold to buy tech!

Persepolis; we research at 10%, therefore researcher is wasted. Note that the capital can easily bear some unhappines without negative effects.

Earlier you (or somebody) was talking about the importance of keeping the cities in WTLKD when possible. That's what I was trying to do.

Sardis: market should have been before aqueduct. Why?

Ellipi has FP, and therefore market was NOT needed before aqueduct. Why did't you hurry the aqueduct? What are you using markets for? I thought they increase commerce (gold).
What does having FP have to do with not needing a market?

Tarsus: I would build cathedral first. Location is not very good for harbour. Tarsus is running out of land tiles to produce FOOD on, so it will not be able to grow any more unless it has a harbor to make the coast tiles produce 2 food.

I would appreciate knowing the reasoning behind some of your comments. You are welcome to email or PM them to me so everyone else is not bored. You seem to be contradicting yourself quite a bit so I must not be understanding you correctly. In one place you say WLTKD is needed and another you criticize a specialist that was keeping WLTKD going. ?? Some places you say I should have hurried aqueduct and another you say I should have built marketplace before aqueduct. I do not mean to argue, but I am very confused and would like to understand so I can learn from it.

Heike

 

[Txurce]

Heike, nothing is more important to winning in Civ3 than researching as quickly as possible. In the end, everything you do - from building libraries to conquering cities to irrigating your own - is all about producing more beakers. The different play levels only make you approach research in different ways; at deity level, for example, the best way to research is to set the slider at zero, and then buy or extort all the techs from the AI.

At regent level you are even with the AI, so you can easily out-research it. You should spend your money on what is most needed. Rushing a library or aqueduct speeds up you research. As for prebuilds, you can always use the palace, as well as universities, etc.

The advantage to upgrading ships as opposed to building them is that the former is faster.

Of course, most of these points pale in comparison to the wasted effort going into the large-scale settling of the second hemisphere.

 

[tao]

Heike, let me expand a little more on my comments. I post it, because maybe others are interested also and just don't ask.

When I commented, I commented on the current situation, part of which resulted from earlier turns.

The really bad boy was MacBaldrick not keeping the peace treaty with Babylon. Therefore, we still can't do gpt tech deals with the AIs.

On regemt level, given the size of Persia, we would well be able to competitively reserach. It just would not be cost effective. It's cheaper to buy the techs, but we have to invest the money that once we start researching, we are not on par, but superior with our research capability.

Therefore we need a super science city, as I said in my post of January 10.

No wonders were being build (F7), hence it's a great time to think about and start pre-builds.

On research: I start research full speed with steam power trying to be the 1st to see coal. Afterwards gunning for ToE and Hoover. From then on, I am usually tech leader. But I always have a super science city (see above).

Saving money is good, but within reason. After your last turn, astronomy plus chemistry was available for 940g. I would have bought it.

Since power comes from size, I would have hurried granaries for faster growth, and also because of this needed markets and aqueducts. Having cash of 1000-1500 should be enough.

I would have build some aqueducts earlier, because not having them limits growth at size 6 and thus future power.

In Ellipi, I thought you built market for happiness/wltkd. And that is not necessary, because the FP also prevents corruption (as does the Palace).

The harbours I would have place to the far East and West of our continent. I would have built galleys/caravels, because it is important to set sail fast and upgrades only need 1 turn and we have the cash to do it.

 

[Txurce]

Tao, it may or may not be true that buying techs on regent level is more "cost-effective" in terms of saving gold. But even if it were true, it doesn't mean that it's the best way to play.

On regent level, any player who grasps the fundamentals of the game can out-research the AI. This player could easily take the lead on a research branch the AI is not researching, and trade for the techs the AI did research. This alone makes accurate "cost-effectiveness" comparisons impossible to make.

Even more importantly, the player who has the tech lead is in control of the game, able to build powerful new units like knights and cavalry first, and gain immeasurable benefit as a result. The same is true for building banks and universities sooner, with their compounding effect on the research rate.

Finally, there's the ultimate reason: you will win the game faster if you do your own research, because due to human focus and opportunistic trading, you will reach your end tech faster than the AI ever will.

The situation is different on emperor, because of the large AI bonuses, but even there, many emperor players take over their own research at the start of the middle ages. Deity is tougher still, and most players research selectively until early in the industrial era. But I have never read a respectable strategy that advocates sitting in the back seat and buying techs from the AI until the industrial age, playing at regent level.

You may want to consider all this in improving your own game play.

 

[n8mac]

Hey, remember me?

I originally started the Grt. lib. and later found we got 3 or 4 tech from it. It was a plan to boost us into a tech lead and keep us there. We could be the first to get magnetism thus first to get to the island. Space ship is our goal, isn't it?

Plus changing the Palace to Forbidden Palace is only a temporary fix. Later on when the new continent will need to defend itself, it will be hard relying on dad miles away. Having a palace and forbidden palace is like having to civs working together. Loose one stride, gain two.

n8mac

 

[MacBaldrick]

Can a great leader be used to complete a palace on the new continent ? If so we can have our cake (Palace + FP on 'home' continent during Middle Ages) and eat it (switch to one in each continent) once we have some new cities to take advantage and a gt leader of course.

I hope my strategy of pre-positioning and using Caravels to cross ocean rather than wait for Galleons will give us that head start without the magnetism tech lead. The next 20 turns will reveal how fast the other AIs follow us to the continent.

 

[tao]

Originally posted by MacBaldrick
Can a great leader be used to complete a palace on the new continent ?

Yes.