[RD] DNC v. Trump, Russia, Wikileaks et al

[rah]

I didn't vote for her and am not responsible for her lose, so quit trying to blame all those that didn't vote for her.
I didn't vote for Trump so am not responsible for his win.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Of course many people think that you are either 10,000% supportive of trump and agree with everything he says and does or you are 10,000% supportive of Hillary and agree with everything she says and does. The idea that someone would not pick and hyper-partisanly support one or the other would most likely make their heads explode...

 

[Sommerswerd]

That is a difficult question. I think he may well be that, though i think he is mostly a career troll and thus isn't really bound to any position (including his racism).

So are you saying that you really can't tell for sure whether he is a racist or just a troll?

The difference is if his policies, of which i was asked, were selected due to racism.

Well I actually didn't ask you that. I asked you a) is Trump is a racist? and b) Is Trump a supporter of racist ideology/policies? But since it appears that you want to approach this subject in a very cautious, thoughtful, and measured way, lets parse it out:

1. Do you Kyriakos personally consider Trump to be a racist? I'm not asking whether you think he "might be" or if its "possible" or if it "seems so"... I'm asking whether you personally have come to the conclusion that Donald Trump is in fact a racist. "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

2. Do you Kyriakos personally believe that Trump is promoting racist ideologies?

3. Do you Kyriakos personally think that Trump advocates for racist policies?

4. Finally, since you brought it up. Assuming that you answer "Yes" to any of the first three questions... I am interested to know: Do you consider his 1)being a racist 2)intention to promote racist ideology; or 3) intention to institute racist policies to be a motivation for the policies he selects?

 

[Lexicus]

I didn't vote for her and am not responsible for her lose, so quit trying to blame all those that didn't vote for her.
I didn't vote for Trump so am not responsible for his win.

You can tell yourself this stuff all you want...but at the end of the day, your vote helped Trump win the election. Maybe that's not what you wanted it to do, maybe that's not what you were thinking when you voted...but that's what happened.

 

[rah]

BS, I live in Illinois. Hillary won Illinois, so your accusation that my vote helped Trump win is totally baseless. Quit trying to equate my hatred of Hillary into support for Trump.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Both were hacked, and Russians choose to release DNC emails to wikileaks.
Irony is that RNC was also hacked but Russia choose not to release emails to wikileaks

There's almost no friction in these rooms with all the grime on the walls/floor, but I'm not sure DNC is going to benefit from pointing fingers. Weren't those emails kind of bad for them? It's not a particularly sound argument to complain "only our bad deeds were exposed"! Deep political BS is pretty well assumed to both parties...

 

[Lexicus]

BS, I live in Illinois. Hillary won Illinois, so your accusation that my vote helped Trump win is totally baseless. Quit trying to equate my hatred of Hillary into support for Trump.

Ah, I had a mental fart and got it confused with Indiana. In that case, you're right, your vote for a third party didn't really matter. But that isn't really the point. I'm not trying to say that you support Trump. I'm trying to say that you can act in a way that helps Trump even while hating Trump's guts, even while truthfully disavowing any and all support for him. And I think a lot of people hated Hillary enough to act in ways that helped Trump, even though they didn't "support" Trump.

 

[Patine]

Careful or @Sommerswerd will label you a Trump supporter, cause those are the only people who dislike Hillary
Oh, and scottish marxists. And portuguese posters - but they likely also support Trump

No dude, there are a ton of people in the Democratic party who are sick of Hillary Clinton and wish she would go away. She is a lightening rod for Republicans and offers nothing positive to the political discourse of the country at this point.

Personally, I'm sick of both main U.S. parties. I think the whole American political Duopoly has to be broken thoroughly to have a chance of giving power back to the people from the plutocratic oligarchs and election and ideological caciques and to allow REAL choice of candidates and REAL political discourse, debate, and discussion, and, most important, to relieve the partisan divide on EVERY aspect of American society today, even where it doesn't even remotely belong. Perhaps an Italian-style "clean hands" events, if the majority of U.S. voters had the conviction, and the knowledge it was those same two parties screwing them over for decades and then smugly watching the electorate crawl back to them at the ballot box in the election, after moaning, groaning, and complaining, to actually pull of such an electoral coup, would send a big message. It would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath or placing big bets on it in Vegas.

 

[rah]

I'm trying to say that you can act in a way that helps Trump even while hating Trump's guts, even while truthfully disavowing any and all support for him.

Yes, I saw it as an opportunity to protest vote. But even if I lived in Indiana (I may have voted differently) but the point is, it's the DNC and Hillary's fault for losing. You can't place the blame on people that couldn't vote for her. You can word pick and use the term RESPONSIBLE but you're really just blaming them. Put the blame where it belongs. A flawed candidate.

 

[Lexicus]

Yes, I saw it as an opportunity to protest vote. But even if I lived in Indiana (I may have voted differently) but the point is, it's the DNC and Hillary's fault for losing. You can't place the blame on people that couldn't vote for her. You can word pick and use the term RESPONSIBLE but you're really just blaming them. Put the blame where it belongs. A flawed candidate.

First of all, I've already stated I blame Hillary for Hillary losing. Secondly, there is no law that says I can only blame Hillary. People who "couldn't" vote for her are responsible for their choices, period.

Anyway, if you really didn't like her, shouldn't you be proud of your (royal you here, to be clear) role in preventing her from winning? If not, why not? They should be like 'yeah I hated Hillary and didn't vote for her so that she wouldn't win, and she didn't win! Suck on that!" Instead they want to play this game of having their cake and eating it too, of having felt unable to vote for Hillary but refusing to accept responsibility for the result of not voting for Hillary. I think they're doing that because deep down they realize it was a choice between Hillary and Trump and they chose Trump.

 

[rah]

I really didn't like Trump either so why should I be proud of whoever won?
I would have been disgusted either way.
I was responsible for my choice. It had no impact but voiced my displeasure with my party. I think that was responsible.
The republican candidate for the senate lost which you can probably blame the dislike for Trump for.

But yes, You have said she was a bad candidate.

 

[red_elk]

First of all, I've already stated I blame Hillary for Hillary losing. Secondly, there is no law that says I can only blame Hillary. People who "couldn't" vote for her are responsible for their choices, period.

Anyway, if you really didn't like her, shouldn't you be proud of your (royal you here, to be clear) role in preventing her from winning? If not, why not? They should be like 'yeah I hated Hillary and didn't vote for her so that she wouldn't win, and she didn't win! Suck on that!" Instead they want to play this game of having their cake and eating it too, of having felt unable to vote for Hillary but refusing to accept responsibility for the result of not voting for Hillary. I think they're doing that because deep down they realize it was a choice between Hillary and Trump and they chose Trump.

This sounds like blaming people who voted for 3-rd party candidates. Of course their choice is their responsibility, but why should they vote for your favorite candidate, if they don't support her? Strange idea.

 

[Kyriakos]

Because, in 2016, there was an election. I just feel like there's some disconnect here, where you're acting like the choice between Hillary and Trump was a false one, but it really wasn't. There really was an election in 2016 and the only possible outcomes of that election were Hillary Clinton winning the Presidency, or Trump winning the Presidency.



Nothing "collective" about it. Your (royal you) individual choice to vote, or not vote, had an effect on the outcome of the election. The idea that people aren't responsible for how they choose to vote is mind-boggling to me. I mean, I agree completely that it's Hillary's fault that Hillary lost, but the people who didn't vote for her are responsible for their choices...

This isn't a 'royal you'; it is just a plural. And i wasn't even eligible to vote, so how exactly is there any guilt on my part? And if not, why do you react to myself stating that i don't have to care more anyway?
Personally i don't want to vote for people i regard very lowly. If you can, good for you (i mean this without any irony at all), but you shouldn't try to ask others to do something just cause you do it.

 

[Lexicus]

This isn't a 'royal you'.

Yes it was

you shouldn't try to ask others to do something just cause you do it.

Actually, I was asking people to do it to prevent the massive amount of harm that I believed would result from a Trump Presidency. Now we are more than a year into the Trump Presidency and I believe that I was right, both to ask people to vote for Hillary and in my reasons for doing so.

 

[Kyriakos]

So are you saying that you really can't tell for sure whether he is a racist or just a troll? Well I actually didn't ask you that. I asked you a) is Trump is a racist? and b) Is Trump a supporter of racist ideology/policies? But since it appears that you want to approach this subject in a very cautious, thoughtful, and measured way, lets parse it out:

1. Do you Kyriakos personally consider Trump to be a racist? I'm not asking whether you think he "might be" or if its "possible" or if it "seems so"... I'm asking whether you personally have come to the conclusion that Donald Trump is in fact a racist. "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

2. Do you Kyriakos personally believe that Trump is promoting racist ideologies?

3. Do you Kyriakos personally think that Trump advocates for racist policies?

4. Finally, since you brought it up. Assuming that you answer "Yes" to any of the first three questions... I am interested to know: Do you consider his 1)being a racist 2)intention to promote racist ideology; or 3) intention to institute racist policies to be a motivation for the policies he selects?

Hm, i think it is a tall order to expect a foreigner to know so much about Trump, no? Need i remind you how much you showed to know about greek politics?

I opted to make the serious post, and instead of parroting something you want to hear (but which i personally do not know), said what i do know and what i think is so. Namely i said that Trump is likely racist, but he is full-trolling (on purpose) so i cannot tell just by the info i have.
Would Trump being a racist make things worse? I suppose so, ethics-wise. You still have Trump whether he is full racist and full troll, or any other variation.

 

[Kyriakos]

Yes it was



Actually, I was asking people to do it to prevent the massive amount of harm that I believed would result from a Trump Presidency. Now we are more than a year into the Trump Presidency and I believe that I was right, both to ask people to vote for Hillary and in my reasons for doing so.

Thanks for accepting me as a royal (well, Avatar helps, ok...). That said (and to your other point), no, i think you have no right to ask anyone to do stuff they already told you would disgust them. You may ask, but don't expect the other person to accept.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Yes it was

Thanks for making me a royal (well, Avatar helps, ok...). That said (and to your other point), no, i think you have no right to ask anyone to do stuff they already told you would disgust them. You may ask, but don't expect the other person to accept.

Technically it's called a "generic" or "impersonal" you. Characterizing the use of an impersonal you as a "royal you" (à la royal we or pluralis maiestatis) doesn't make a whole lot of sense. A king refers to themself in the first-person-plural to give a greater sense of magnanimity or grandness, not because they are impersonal representatives of the state or the body politic or anything like that.

But Sommer made it a meme, what can you do?

 

[Lexicus]

But Sommer made it a meme, what can you do?

At one time I typically referred to it as a "general you" but indeed, I have absorbed the Sommer meme into my bloodstream via cultural osmosis and now my blood is meme juice

Thanks for accepting me as a royal (well, Avatar helps, ok...). That said (and to your other point), no, i think you have no right to ask anyone to do stuff they already told you would disgust them. You may ask, but don't expect the other person to accept.

Then I suppose the question becomes, why do you think your own personal reaction of disgust for some course of action should weigh more than the actual people who will suffer as a result of your taking the other course of action?

And this is the part where you argue that really Hillary and Trump aren't too different, and now you think of it, Trump is actually better in area a, b, and c, and Hillary's a warmongering Wall St liar anyway, but what no I don't support Trump, how dare you insinuate such a ridiculous and insulting thing

 

[Patine]

Yes, I saw it as an opportunity to protest vote. But even if I lived in Indiana (I may have voted differently) but the point is, it's the DNC and Hillary's fault for losing. You can't place the blame on people that couldn't vote for her. You can word pick and use the term RESPONSIBLE but you're really just blaming them. Put the blame where it belongs. A flawed candidate.

First of all, I've already stated I blame Hillary for Hillary losing. Secondly, there is no law that says I can only blame Hillary. People who "couldn't" vote for her are responsible for their choices, period.

Anyway, if you really didn't like her, shouldn't you be proud of your (royal you here, to be clear) role in preventing her from winning? If not, why not? They should be like 'yeah I hated Hillary and didn't vote for her so that she wouldn't win, and she didn't win! Suck on that!" Instead they want to play this game of having their cake and eating it too, of having felt unable to vote for Hillary but refusing to accept responsibility for the result of not voting for Hillary. I think they're doing that because deep down they realize it was a choice between Hillary and Trump and they chose Trump.

I blame Alexander Hamilton and his Electoral College brainchild for Hillary Clinton losing (not that I really thought she was any better - 2016 truly was an election where the U.S. electorate was thoroughly and utterly cheated and robbed by monstrous and corrupt candidates as the only real choices by the time the nominations were made). Ironically enough, and something those digging in to defend the EC carrying forward indefinitely with no reform or review don't realize (or are in denial) that one of the BIGGEST reasons Hamilton set up the EC the way he did (along with placating the Slave States so they didn't leave before the Constitution was even ratified, taking what was at the time the new nation's biggest source of revenue with them) was specifically to STOP a populist (like Trump) from winning the U.S. Presidency. Mission failed!

 

[rah]

Actually, I was asking people to do it to prevent the massive amount of harm that I believed would result from a Trump Presidency. Now we are more than a year into the Trump Presidency and I believe that I was right, both to ask people to vote for Hillary and in my reasons for doing so.

You used "I believed" twice in there. Regardless of hindsight, Lexicus believes isn't concrete evidence for me to do anything.
I will admit that I figured he would be a crappy president but since Hillary will never be president, there will never be absolute proof on which one would be worse. While I'm sure most here have the same opinion on that one, that's all it is.
And if you remove the impact he's having on the judicial branch of the government (which many consider not harmful), the jury is still out on that MASSIVE amount of harm. It's all opinion. (but I'll bet on it getting worse before it gets better)

Place more blame on dems that didn't vote and less on Republicans that didn't vote for Trump