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Do archers upgrade to berserk?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by jetha, Feb 4, 2008.

  1. jetha

    jetha Chieftain

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    Hi guys.

    I've searched the forums here and at Apolyton's, but it seems the Vikings are not a very often-played civ. Can anyone tell me why this is? Don't archers upgrade to berserk (the Scandinavian longbow replacing UU)? Or what is the problem with the Vikings? Ision and Zardnaar, who've done reviews on most of the civs, even the Hitites :lol: haven't covered the Vikings.

    Does anyone have experience (good or bad) playing the Vikings?
    I'd appreciate your input. Thanks.

    Jetha
     
  2. ChaosArbiter

    ChaosArbiter King

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    Yes, Archers upgrade to Berserkers. I haven't played them much, just started a ... well, it's supposed to be a Pangaea map, but I started on an island with the Romans and the Iroquois started on an island to the south, and I had to wait until I had the Lighthouse before I could get a 5-movement Galley across the seas to the big continent.

    I don't think there is a problem with the Vikings, just that there are other Civs that have better traits. They're an okay military force, and they're okay at ocean-travel, but they don't really stand out at anything except that they have an early, powerful amphibious unit - and that's not too useful since 1-tile islands are fairly rare.
     
  3. jetha

    jetha Chieftain

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    Thanks for the quick response ChaosArbiter!

    Anyone else with experience why to play or not to play the Vikings?
     
  4. Marsden

    Marsden Keeper of the HoF Annex Hall of Fame Staff

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    I played the Vikings just to use them to try to use everyone at least once and I didn't have favorable results. Militaristic is marginal, yes you get promotions more often, but everyone gets promotions. Barracks aren't too expensive to start with but you still need to pay the maintanence. Seafaring is ok, but I like it as a supplementary trait, not a main trait, plus the Vikings are unique in the fact that they have a building that's half price under both of their traits but still only get 1 half price, IOW, they pay 30 for a harbor because it's both a seafaring and a military improvement. I think they should only have to pay 15, but that's me. I couldn't get into enough situations to use the Berserk properly to justify it's expense. Plus, just like cavalry, it has attack 6, but unlike cavalry it doesn't retreat so you lose a lot of them. Of course a retreating Berserk would be an oxymoron, but in Civ a retreated unit can be fully healed at no further cost.
     
  5. MAS

    MAS Deity

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    6 attack at the same time period where everyone else just has mostly 2 def, 3 at most. Plus def bonuses are ignored in an amphibious assault. Seafaring means 4 movement galleys.

    Why limit yourself to 1 tile island? Use them on any coastal city you can get your hands on.

    Archers are quick to build, build up your forces with them, then mass upgrade.

    Of course, this will work better on smaller maps, or island maps. Large continents have to much inland cities. Knights are better for conquering inland cities.
    In those cases you could use zerks to conquer the first couple of coastal cities and use those as a base to land you knights.
     
  6. PaperBeetle

    PaperBeetle Emperor

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    Really? I didn't know that, but it does explain the uncommon valour of my Polynesian marines in the recent sid GOTM. A very handy piece of information.
     
  7. Gosnork

    Gosnork Warlord

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    Remember, a Berserk in a Galley has 4 movement points. Build the GL and you have a 5 movement 6 attack unit a half-age BEFORE cavalry. Add in the lack of defensive bonuses Mas mentioned and you can cripple enemy civs on the 1st turn of the war, before they have a chance to launch a counter-attack against your landing force. Bring along a few Muskets, and use them to defend your new cities so you can ship out the Berserks as soon as they reach full health. Build some Berserk armies for land conquest and use them to capture better defended AI coastal cities once Galleons come along.

    Make sure to build Leonardo's Workshop though if you plan on a mass upgrade. You won't need very many cities building archers, so make sure your other cities build markets so that you will have the cash to upgrade the archers.
     
  8. Tone

    Tone Deity Hall of Fame Staff

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    Play them 'cos their UU is just so much fun. What other reason do you need?

    I'll admit that the traits are not that fantastic but a 'pelago map will improve your advantage. Beserks have great longevity; I've had them razing towns defended by infantry so who is going to resist the might of the Vikings in the middle ages? Pillage the coastal cities behind enemy lines whilst the main force takes the key objectives and any AI will give you great terms on any PT.

    Just be warned that upgrading archers is very expensive.
     
  9. Headbanger

    Headbanger Warlord

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    Berserks are definately worth the cost. 6 att? Thats like having amphibious cavalry. Getting the frst attack on an island map in crucial, since dropping your units leave them vulnerable to the ci'vs usually heavy garison.
     
  10. qoou

    qoou Emperor

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    Totally +1.

    They are one of the best civs for AW games, and their UU is still one of the top units until an era and a half later. Mil also means better leader chances + awesome offensive UU + awesome for AW = awesome for 20k AW. Cheap 'raxes + expansionist in PTW = awesome for early rushes; cheap 'raxes + seafaring in C3C = umm... good for insane early expo?. They seem weaker in AA C3C and fall behind in tech easier, but once you get their UU the extra movement point (and lower chance of sinking for 'pealago maps) make them awesome. Unfortunately, even though they can expand explosively, they lack infra skills and many fall behind after inf and tanks (no ind = slow infra; no comm or sci = slower tech; no rel or sci = no cheap culture in cities that need that first expansion).


    (Note: I'm a conquest guy, not a sci/diplo/20K guy)
     
  11. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    I have had some fun with berserks, they are very powerful offensively. It is better to build them than upgrade, as they are 70 shields. Paired with knights or muskets, they make short work of spear defended cities on the coast and are great for defending newly captured inland cities. I played continents and still took my continent over with them. The civ traits are bottom tier, barely better than Portugal, but played right, bad civ traits are barely a handicap. 6 attack is pretty awesome that early, and can be used to destroy enemies before they get cavalry(or Sipahi, in my last Viking game). Expensive and weak on defense, but unstoppable en masse. Load them in armies and they are good up to infantry.
     
  12. PaperBeetle

    PaperBeetle Emperor

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    Their main drawback is that they are resourceless! There is a nice synergy between requiring Invention, which tech make Leonardo available, and being an expensive upgrade. But the problem is that you cannot then sit on 0% research, using disconnect/reconnect to quickly amass an endless flood of berserks.
     
  13. D0NIMATRIX

    D0NIMATRIX Full of drivel

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    Berserks are useful because a ship can move farther on average than their land counterparts, cavalry. Plus it can go almost anywhere. A few ships in the right locations can launch a multi-pronged blitz on an enemy civ and put them under lots of pressure. Plus they're not that bad of a land unit anyways.
     
  14. Mursi lives

    Mursi lives Warlord

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    Berserks are actually much more expensive than knights: you need galleys to make them effective and since you cannot afford losing a ship full of berserks, you need extra galleys to protect your galleys!
    Also, the ships make them fast, but they still cant retreat when they are losing, and they often lose vs muskets or even vs pikes+bows.:(
    Amphibious attack means no bonus def but it also means no treb for you.

    My advice would be: dont wait for them to attack. To make them fun, you really should have already crushed at least one neighbour and got many towns.

    Dont laugh of Hittites.:lol: At DG level they are fair builders. I would even rank them 2nd tier.:)
     
  15. ChaosArbiter

    ChaosArbiter King

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    Yup. Game I was just playing an elite Berserker attacking from a caravel redlined a Musketman but still died ... for the 'no bonuses to defense,' that means it doesn't count city size either, right?
    And, although you won't have Trebuchets, if you get far enough ahead of your rivals you might get Frigates ... or you can bribe a Byzantine and hope she uses Dromons a lot.
     
  16. Headbanger

    Headbanger Warlord

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    The hittite chariot sounds like a bunch of mentally deficient circus clowns on playground equipment.

    The best part about playing against the vikings is the fact that the ai is far to stupid for proper naval invasions. I've seen the berserks misused so often...
     
  17. D0NIMATRIX

    D0NIMATRIX Full of drivel

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    :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

    Man, that was the only text reply that has ever made me laugh.:lol:
     
  18. Ringo Kid

    Ringo Kid Prince

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    INMHO the best civ for sea invasions is the Byzantine. Why? Because the dromon is available very early, and is dominant on the sea all the way up to frigates.

    The thing is you have to use them in a big stack. Being able to bombard is no big deal if you only do it 2 or 3 times. But use a fleet of a dozen dromons to deliver a few spearmen and a bunch of archers and see what happens.

    The dromons drop off the troops and bombard the target city in the same turn. This will redline the garrison so, no counterattack against your invaders from them. On the next turn your archers will almost always win every time against any defenders up to and including muskets. (Because they have been redlined again by your bombardment). This renders the enemy defenseless all the way from "Mapmaking" to "Nationalism".

    And by that time- you have already won.

    So if you want to go conquest on a water map- the Byzantines are a better choice than the Vikings.
     
  19. Marsden

    Marsden Keeper of the HoF Annex Hall of Fame Staff

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    Now if we could only carry the Berserks in the Dromons, then we'd be on Fire! I know I'm being silly, but historically some Vikings did work for the Byzantines as mercinaries.
     
  20. ChaosArbiter

    ChaosArbiter King

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    See, what would be great is if they'd kept the unit trade from Civ 2 - instead of merely purchasing workers, it would be wonderful if you could buy military units - it would lessen your reliance on resources (if you're willing to pay) and you could get UU.
     

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