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Do chops get wasted if they are finished on the same turn when the city is whipped?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by guspasho, Dec 15, 2015.

  1. guspasho

    guspasho Chieftain

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    I just whipped a city to finish a building and then my workers finished chopping two forests on the same turn. It doesn't appear the chops got added to the overflow. What happened? Are the chops wasted?
     
  2. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    Depends first on whether you play the unmodded base-game or if you play with BUG or BUFFY. In the base-game, there's a chance that "too many :hammers: " will simply get wasted. IIrc, you can not take more than either a) half of the :hammers: that the build costs or b) the :hammers: the city produces / turn normally - whatever is higher - into the next turn. if you're over that limit and play without any mods, :hammers: are simply lost. That was admitted to be a bug though, that's why it's fixed in the BUG and BUFFY versions of the game. If you play with those, you get 1 :gold: for every :hammers: that's over the limit, which can sometimes be very useful, especially in early game, because then you can i. e. whip a Warrior and heavily chop into it on the same turn, creating huge sums of :gold: that easily get you 'til Alpha or Currency.
     
  3. guspasho

    guspasho Chieftain

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    I am playing with BUFFY and it does look like the overflow did get converted to treasury gold, but everything over 30 :hammers:. Here's the savegame from just before I whip/chopped in case anyone wants to analyze it. I'm curious about the math behind this now. I whipped a monument in New Sarai with 8 :hammers: overflow, then I chopped two maths forests for 60 :hammers: of additional overflow. The next turn I got about 40 :gold: added to my treasury (probably exactly 38 :gold:) and 30 :hammers: overflow in to my next build, regardless of whether I selected granary or market. So it seems the overflow is limited to 30 :hammers:.
     

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  4. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    I am a bit confused, I play the unmodded BTS v3.19, I thought that overflow was capped at the cost of the build rather than 1/2 the cost of the build.
     
  5. Lennier

    Lennier Chieftain

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    At normal speed a monument costs 30 :hammers: . So the overflow is capped at the cost of the build.
     
  6. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    I was referring to this:

    Is Seraiel just incorrect here or is he referring to a different patch/mod than what I'm playing?
     
  7. guspasho

    guspasho Chieftain

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    I didn't realize this was a relatively well-known thing. What do people typically do to get around this problem? Just delay finishing the chop by a turn?
     
  8. TalladegaKnight

    TalladegaKnight Chieftain

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    That or change production in the city to the item you want to get the chop. Then complete the first item on the next turn.
     
  9. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    I'm sry, but the months of me not playing CIV have made me a n00b -.- ;) .

    Ofc. it's either a) the cost of the build (not 1/2 of it) or b) the :hammers: a city produces / turn - whichever is higher.

    Sry ;) .
     
  10. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    Ahhhh, okay, thanks for clearing that up....I know you're not usually wrong so I was like :confused:
     
  11. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    Several possibilities. If this had occured in one of my games, I'd have probably switched in a Granary and 1T built it with the two chops, then finish the whipped Monument 1T later. Better lose 1 :culture: than 2 Workerturns. Also, whipping before moving all units is usually a bad habit. I had the same sometimes, like when I planned whips and ofc. I don't always had all worker-timings in my head all the time. Though that's a special case, it shows just this, when you whip before you chop, then this situation could occur. If you 1st move the units and then afterwards manage the cities, the problems that can occur are minor ones, like i. e. finishing a building with a chop while it would have been possible to leave the forest pre-chopped and instead whip the building to the use the forest later for something more important. In any case, you should pay more attention to not wasting Workerturns. Being able to do with less Workers is one of the most important abilities when trying to beat the higher difficulties, because Workers are just ridiculously expensive. You even having two Workers is better than having 0 Workers there. Two Workers for an unimportant city is very much though. Two for the capital are ok, because that city ideally is managed to grow as much as possible, therefore, two Workers are needed to keep up with improvements. A new, unimportant city however doesn't deserve so many resources. All it needs is 1. a trade-connection (ideally by river) and 2. 2-4 improved tiles so the city can be 1-2 pop whipped. If you 1. whip a Monument, city goes from 2->1, so 1 Worker can without problems improve the food and chop a Forest. You also don't need 4 Improvements 'til the city is size 4, because then you'll probably whip it 4->2 for a Granary. From this you see, that one Worker is more than enough, to improve that city. Sometimes I improved 3-4 cities with 1 Worker in the beginning. This can be very very powerful, because it allows you to build more Settlers instead, and grabbing the land quickly enough is one of the greatest early difficulties on Deity.
    Ofc., if those two Workers of you were stolen Workers, than it's a totally different situation ;) .
     
  12. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    Thx (honestly) .

    What caused this error was, that my subconscience still knew, that multipliers actually apply to this situation. See this quote from one of my guides:

    This was the exact situation I thought of, a University giving 300 :hammers: of OF but costing 600 :hammers: . This is important therefore, because having multipliers is such a common situation. My answer, that it's either a) the cost of the build or b) the :hammers: a city produces / turn was actually too simple, because the truth is, all of this needs to be calculated in base-hammers! So if one is PHI and builds a University, that build is actually 300 base-hammers (without a Forge, without anything) . If one has a Factory in a city, that city doesn't make twice as many :hammers: , it makes the same base-hammers that get multiplied by 100% through the Factory. If a city i. e. makes 200 :hammers: , via whatever means, builds a cheap unit (i. e. Spy) , it cannot take 200 :hammers: into the next turn as OF. What matters is, how many base-hammers that city creates. If those 200 :hammers: were 100 base-hammers *2 through a Factory, than 100 :hammers: or the cost of the building (again, in base-hammers) is the amount the city can take into the next turn. This is a little strange, because that basically means, that by having a Factory, a city loses 50% of it's ability to take :hammers: into the next turn. It's logical though, because on the next turn, the same city also gains the lost % again on the next turn. If this wouldn't be calculated in base-hammers, a Factory would actually not only give +100 :hammers: but also double the amount of OF a city could take into the next turn, and that ofc. would be completely silly, because then, a city creating 200 :hammers: building a Spy could take 170 :hammers: into the next turn and then again those 170 :hammers: would be multiplied by the Factory making the city produce 540 :hammers: on the next turn, so a city would increasingly produce more and more :hammers: because the same :hammers: would get multiplied several times by the same building on consecutive turns (like i. e. compound interest) .

    I hope this makes sense.
     
  13. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    I think it does. I mean, the bit about overflow being calculated in base hammers makes sense because otherwise you'd end up with ever-increasing overflow.

    As far as traits making buildings cheaper, I thought it doesn't actually make the build cheaper but instead gives you a blanket 100% multiplier on hammers applied to that build.

    So building a PHI university at 12:hammers:/turn with a forge, you'd get 16:hammers:/turn which would be multiplied by the PHI trait to 32:hammers:/turn. Is that right?
     
  14. 6K Man

    6K Man Bureaucrat

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    The bonuses are additive, not multiplicative. So 12 base hammers + 100% for Phi and +25% for Forge is 27 hammers.
     
  15. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    You're correct, the build doesn't get cheaper, there's a +100% bonus on :hammers: applied to the build. Again, calculating everything in base-hammers, there's no problem, because then, the 600 :hammers: for the university are actually only 300 base-hammers. I had the same problems understanding this, as you had, but could easily accept the fact, that OF simply needs to be calculated in base-hammers. I assume, that this has to do with getting the correct OF from trait-pushed-builds and not being able to create double-OF from the bonus. You need to imagine, that if you create 600 :hammers: on the turn you build a PHI-University, those :hammers: get multiplied to 1200, and that is over the limit, so only 600 :hammers: are carried into the next turn. Those 600 :hammers: initially were 300 :hammers: , so if you'd get the full 600, you'd actually have created 300 :hammers: from nothing. At least 1 CIV-dev didn't consider this aswell, because in the early versions, there was a strategy with PRO-trait and whip-chopping Walls with incredible OF, and because the bonus applied to the Walls was carried on into the next turn, it was actually possible to get 2 :gold: for 1 :hammers: . The result of this was, that PRO was one of the best traits, because it allowed creating huge sums of :gold: . I believe only PRO had that bug, because otherwise, the same strategy would have been used with all trait-pushed-buildings, and then EXP-trait would have been best of all, because Granaries are cheaper and also buildings that one actually needs.
     

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