1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[GS] Do Harbors strictly dominate Commerical Hubs now?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Lily_Lancer, Oct 7, 2019.

  1. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,753
    Location:
    Berkeley,CA
    This is my sense upon the recent updates.

    Everything that bonuses CHs bonuses Harbors in the same way, including Golden Age Science bonus and CS bonuses.

    Harbors have much better adjcancy than CHs, earlier double adj card, immune from floods, great admirals are better than great merchants. Better buildings (lighthouses are much better than markets, markets only have 2 gold besides the trade routes, but look what lighthouses have! so as shipyards v. banks. ), also the cost is reduced since we have the +30% policy only work for Harbors but not Commercial Hubs. Also sea trade routes yield much more than land routes.

    I really cannot find any better points for Commercial Hubs than Harbors. Maybe Rationalism? But even a doubled(you need +3 and 10 pop) market yields 4 gold and is still not comparable to lighthouse. So as banks v. shipyards.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
    Uberfrog, bbbt and acluewithout like this.
  2. montalaar

    montalaar Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    61
    harbors are amazing now. i like to play big coastal empires and that is so nice to have meaningful admirals finally. before i never knew what to do with them, except tie to ships.
    and yes, harbors better than hubs. and those shipyards... gitarja, betty or dido + harbors, ahhh.
    but hubs are not obsolete at all. you can involve hubs better into disctict clusters than harbor. its always nice part of game - planning disctricsts, hubs have their place among them almost always.
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  3. Lonecat Nekophrodite

    Lonecat Nekophrodite Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    467
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes. with this. Coastal city (With harbor district, you don't need to build city by the coast for naval ability) may only build Commercial Districts as secondary. sometimes it's not needed at all.
    It is more or less overpowered. There should be 'Naval Base' (Encampment for warships, also trains Marines style unit as well) as a separate district that permits faster construction of warships and can shoot enemies without adding more trade routes).
     
  4. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,133
    Location:
    Canada
    They never had spy missions to worry about.
     
  5. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,436
    I totally forgot about that, thanks for reminding me.
     
  6. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,038
    Location:
    Toronto
    Harbors also take up a virtually useless tile, whereas commerce hubs often need prime riverside real-estate to get their max bonuses. The only real advantage of commerce hubs is that you can usually pack them in better with other district giving better adjacencies there. And Harbor adjacency still isn't great if the city itself is not coastal - rare to find a spot with more than 2 sea resources nearby, so those Harbors are limited to +2 and you miss out on the extra lighthouse bonus.

    I think the flaw right now is the fact that they both fight for the trade route. I really think for balance, probably neither should get the trade route, and there should be other ways to get bonus trade routes. Maybe if trade routes were given like governor titles, where you get a fixed amount over the course of the game? And there was simply an extra bonus for passing through a commerce hub or harbor? Something so that you don't have this direct comparison of Habor vs CH, especially since trade routes are so valuable that they totally dominate the base bonuses. Like, in my current game, I'm at turn 75ish, and I can send a +15 trade route over water to a city-state. That's obviously way more valuable than whatever bonuses commerce hubs can yield.
     
  7. Equilin

    Equilin Prince

    Joined:
    May 8, 2017
    Messages:
    331
    Gender:
    Male
    you can also build harbors in lakes if you don't have coast, and still get its benefit without building any ships, increasing its availability
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  8. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,402
    Maybe.

    I question whether Admirals are better than Merchants, though. Some Admirals are good, but some are still kind of rubbish. Same for Merchants. I think they're both OK, now.

    Anyway, Harbors probably ought to be better than Commercial Hubs because Harbors are built in coastal cities, which are still overall weaker than inland cities.
     
    _hero_, Banazir864 and acluewithout like this.
  9. Weraptor

    Weraptor Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    561
    Gender:
    Male
    Seaports also require no power, for some reason.
     
  10. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2015
    Messages:
    1,091
    I rarely build CHs unless my whole empire is inland. I don't get every district I want... usually my secondary cities are busy making theater stuff or science stuff. I'll make a harbor because you can get a pretty good production boost from seaports, but not so much from commercial hubs (apart from internal trade routes)
     
  11. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    4,543
    Going off on a tangent here, but I think now more than ever, that we need a coastal version of the commercial hub to inherit the gold and food bonuses of the harbor, and then a coastal version of the encampment to inherit the production and military aspects of the harbor. I'm glad they're working on making coastal positions more attractive, but I do think the current harbor has a little too much muscle crammed into it. And the whole "only one trade route, so half the benefit is missed by building both harbor and commercial hub" was always an ugly solution.

    I still think the CH has the great merchant points going for it. Some of them are pretty great, even if we no longer has vanilla Adam Smith. But with recent improvements to admirals, even that gap is closing rapidly.
     
    steveg700, Banazir864 and qadams like this.
  12. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,726
    Harbours are probably better than commercial hubs overall. But they’re harder to research given they’re on a leaf tech; you need coast to build them (obviously), so in many cities they aren’t an option; and frankly you don’t need harbours or commercial hubs for gold - there’s plenty in the game already.

    I think the key point is harbours are more fun than commercial hubs.

    Sorry, but I really can’t disagree more. The thing that’s great about the Harbour is that it’s a mixed yield district. There aren’t enough of those as it is.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2019
  13. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    4,543
    I think that's ... ugly ... but I respect that this boils down to a question of taste.
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    10,454
    There is no inspiration for a great admiral but they give great era bonuses.
    They need water and are there to make a useless tile better rather than inland where you do not have a useless tile
    Lighthouses are really a replacement for using builder charges for farms on plains.
    The harbour adjacency card means you have to have a lot of harbours.
    Harbours damage district discounts but the inspiration for 2 of them can be useful.
    Harbours get wrecked by hurricanes, completely wrecked along with improvements at sea.
    Harbours get attacked by barb sailors.

    Bottom line is both are useful for traders. It is hard to get a lot of harboursand they do not really help with victory directly but the shipyard is great.
     
    acluewithout and Ownsya like this.
  15. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Messages:
    2,873
    I'm loving naval play even more since the patch for sure. The "continents + islands" may type especially seems to be a good fit. The AI seem to stick more to the continents and you can take all the islands no problem. Large coastal cities are even better economic powerhouses than before, free inquiry is still amazing, and you can actually get decent campuses with the reef bonus too.

    My first game back after not playing civ for quite a while...made tons of mistakes, missed free inquiry but it didn't even matter. Playing as Dido so I had so many cities I was beating the AI in tech on population alone (on king).

    My second game back, much less rusty I played as England and upped the difficulty to emperor...this time I nailed the free inquiry slingshot properly and had built 20+ shipyards by end of medieval, which is pretty much game over. Landed my exoplanet while the world was still in the modern age.

    Time for immortal I guess but yeah early impressions is naval expansionist style is quite strong.
     
  16. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,607
    Gender:
    Male
    You can't build them inland.

    But yes, Commercial Hub buildings are terrible. With GA's being buffed, Commercial hubs are inferior.
     
  17. Draco84

    Draco84 Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Messages:
    211
    This is the biggest down side to harbours I think. I don't know how often a Caravel would appear and my archers and cities would do nearly 0 damage, can't build a ship since the harbor is covered and can't kill the barbs, very disruptive even if I have ships in the area.
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  18. bbbt

    bbbt Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,939
    I definitely think commercial districts need an adjacency bonus buff - gold from neighboring luxes, oasis, as well. Maybe something like a market adds gold along river tiles or something like that would be cool.

    Having said that, I'm still expecting expansion three to come with an economic victory and possibly corporations of some format, and I'd guess the commercial hub will get a rework (or branching options that are victory focus).

    Re the harbor as commercial vs militaristic: they could easily solve that with building branches. I.e. lighthouse stays the same, but tier 2 and tier 3 buildings could be two each, one with a merchant lean (giving great merchant points) and one with a military lean (giving great admiral points).
     
    Hakan-i Cihan likes this.
  19. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Doctor of Funk

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    5,208
    Gender:
    Male
    You've just described why nations have navies.
     
    TheSpaceCowboy and SammyKhalifa like this.
  20. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    5,097
    Nah. Keep them the way they are only add the requirement that the city has to be built on the coast (and not a lake) to be made.

    We need coastal cities to be more powerful, they say? Let's do this.
     

Share This Page