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Do Palastinians get the vote?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by zulu9812, Jan 11, 2004.

  1. r4ge

    r4ge Chieftain

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    Wait a sec.... You are all crushing the events leading up to the creation of Israel. There is so much more you are missing, which would make a diffrence to anyones perception, on the justness of Israels creation.

    None of you even mentioned the role of the English and how their occupation altered the outcomes. None of you stated clearly how each major City was divided between the Muslim quarter and Jewish Sector. One other major point you all missed, is the role of various secret agencies (Terrorist agencies) who fought against each other to gain power and to coeherce their oponents.
    These factors although they seem artificial, played a major role in the final outcome.

    I am not asking you to write an essay, just dont generalize an event which took atleast 30 years to materialize. (The Balfour Decleration 1917)
     
  2. Chauliodus

    Chauliodus Warlord

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    US still accepted Jews, Canada turned them away, many back into the hands of Germany.
     
  3. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

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    In all honesty, I am seeing a lot of ignorance here, and it is not from the Israelis (who do actually live there, by the way). Some of you need to do some research I think, and particularly before you try to be insulting or demeaning.

    Try living in a world where you are basically taking the risks of military service without having volunteered...
     
  4. Desmond Hawkins

    Desmond Hawkins Deity

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    The British were for the most part extremely pro-Arab, and did everything they could to make the Jews lose.


    Anyways, it is undeniable that the Israelis have showed a LOT of grace in dealing with the Palestinians, where the other Arab nations have showed absolutely none.
     
  5. Capulet

    Capulet RESTART

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    1. The Palestinians do want to live peacefully with Jews, but they will blow themselves a million times over if they do not get equal and fair treatment by the Jews.

    2. If the Israelis would want to live in peace with the Palestinians, how about leaving the occupied territories for a bit and see how many suicide bombings they'll be. I gurantee they'll be none.

    3. Even if Arafat helped the Palestinians' living condition, whats the use when Israel will just send an Apache to blow up a building then get a bulldozer to clean it up? We saw what happened to Arafat's complex and the houses of Palestnians that had to move to make room for settlements.

    4. You say there is no state of Palestine. You're right there. But there was meant to be one, and that was prevented by Israeli occupation. If the Israelis leave, the Palestnians will declare the independance. I think that a people who have lived their more recently have as much or even better a claim than a people who had a kingdom in the same place 5000 years ago.

    Wrong again. Israel was attacked by the Arabs twice, in 1948 and in 1973. On the other hand, Israel attacked Arab countries twice, in 1967 (when it seized Palestinian/Arab lands and Jerusalem) and in 1981 (attacking and occupying Lebanon.) I guess that makes them even. Palestinians and Israelis are both human - they both want the same things. They both want a place to call their own (without having to leave their current homes) and they both want a place that is secure enough to raise their children and live a prosperous life. If Israel just left the territories, I am 100% sure that everyone except the Israeli war hawks will be happy :goodjob:
     
  6. Pontiuth Pilate

    Pontiuth Pilate Republican Jesus!

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    Israelites had here (in Israel ) a kingdom before .

    That argument is total BS and people won't stop using it! Why should the Kingdom of Israel have any importance today? It is far older and was far weaker than other nations which inhabitated that land. If Israels are allowed to invade Palestine, declare independence, and found the state of Israel, then why aren't Tunisians allowed to invade Israel, declare independence, and found the state of Phoenicia? Or Tyre? What about Assyria? What about Persia? The Greeks? What about the Roman Empire?

    The British were for the most part extremely pro-Arab, and did everything they could to make the Jews lose.


    The British, pro-Arab? This is why they snubbed TE Lawrence and Faisal, right? :rolleyes: The Brits were overwhelming pro-Jew. True, they severely limited immigration, and cracked down on Jewish terrorist organizations. But overall the situation was the Kingdom of Britain forcing the creation of the State of Israel over the heads of, and without the consultation of, Arab leaders in Palestine itself. Whose fault is it if many Arab leaders felt betrayed by the difference between Lawrence's promises and the Throne's policies? That depends on your opinion and interpretation, of course.
     
  7. Pontiuth Pilate

    Pontiuth Pilate Republican Jesus!

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    2. If the Israelis would want to live in peace with the Palestinians, how about leaving the occupied territories for a bit and see how many suicide bombings they'll be. I gurantee they'll be none.

    Oy vey :rolleyes:
     
  8. Capulet

    Capulet RESTART

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    While I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that, I'll assume you disagree with me. If the Israelis left and the Palestinians were given a state of their own, what would Hamas and Islamic Jihad have to fight for? Even if they wanted to continue to fight the Israelis, the general public would probably rebel against them and the Palestinian security force (that can only be sustained by a stable Palestinian state) would destroy the extremist groups. No occupation, no reason to fight.
     
  9. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

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    Weren't the Palestinians offered a peace settlement where they got nearly everything they asked for? Didn't they decline? I have a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinian people, but I think their leadership's attempts to demonize Israel so that the 'infidels' can be driven into the sea is at the root of the problem. Who do you think tells people to martyr themselves to assure their salvation? Why don't the Palestinian leaders ever blow themselves up?

    If the Palestinians want a country, they will probably get one at some point. Unfortunately, what their leadership wants is continued warfare to insure that Israel will someday be destroyed. In all likelihood, all they will get is their own annihalation, and that of the people they are supposed to be looking out for.

    Speaking of voting, why not let the Palestinian people vote on whether to accept the next peace offering? Oh, wait, their leadership could not allow that...
     
  10. Capulet

    Capulet RESTART

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    No, the 2000 Camp David Peace plan was majorly flawed. Israel's Camp David proposal denied the Palestinian state viability and independence by dividing Palestinian territory into four separate cantons entirely surrounded, and therefore controlled, by Israel. In addition, Israel sought control over an additional 10% of the Occupied Palestinian Territories in the form of a "long-term lease".
    In a prison for example, 95% of the prison compound is ostensibly for the prisoners - cells, cafeterias, gym and medical facilities - but the remaining 5% is all that is needed for the prison guards to maintain control over the prisoner population. All of Jerusalem would also controlled by Israel, which the Palestinians obviously refused. Also, there were supposed to be elections last Feburary, but because the Israelis destroyed Arafat's building and increased checkpoints, those were canceled.
     
  11. Pontiuth Pilate

    Pontiuth Pilate Republican Jesus!

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    While I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that, I'll assume you disagree with me. If the Israelis left and the Palestinians were given a state of their own, what would Hamas and Islamic Jihad have to fight for? Even if they wanted to continue to fight the Israelis, the general public would probably rebel against them and the Palestinian security force (that can only be sustained by a stable Palestinian state) would destroy the extremist groups. No occupation, no reason to fight.

    You're forgetting that the only thing that dies harder than a Jewish grudge is an Arab grudge. Our mothers may be habitual naggers and scorekeepers, but their politicians are worse :p

    I can say from personal experience [I lived there for four years and I still have friends there] that the Middle Eastern culture, both Jewish and Arab, is based on pride. The giving of gifts is literally tribute [not like in the USA where it is usually a slightly condescending sign of the higher status of the giver]. Thus, the first side which breaks off the cycle of violence will be seen as having "given in" or "knuckled under". It will not be a "step towards peace" but a "victory" to be quickly followed up on by the other side before they lose the advantage. That applies to both Israel and Palestine, by the way.
     
  12. Pontiuth Pilate

    Pontiuth Pilate Republican Jesus!

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    The Camp David Peace Plan did not create two separate and equal states. It created Israel and a set of Palestinian Bantustans. Had the Palestinians accepted, they would have no more actual independence today.

    But I do agree with Eyrei 100% that the Palestinian leadership is wrecking Palestinian's hopes and chances, and that it's time for the Palestinians to change leaders, hopefully someone who will actually look out for them.
     
  13. Capulet

    Capulet RESTART

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    You don't know that the Arabs or Jews will hold a grudge, because peace has never been obtained, ever. Disregarding their culture, if the Arabs and Jews did hold a grudge, then there would obviously be no use trying to settle this dispute. So its better to assume they won't hold one :)
     
  14. Capulet

    Capulet RESTART

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    Exactly. Israel's proposal divided Palestine into four separate cantons surrounded by Israel: the Northern West Bank, the Central West Bank, the Southern West Bank and Gaza. Going from any one area to another would require crossing Israeli sovereign territory and consequently subject movement of Palestinians within their own country to Israeli control. Not only would such restrictions apply to the movement of people, but also to the movement of goods, in effect subjecting the Palestinian economy to Israeli control. Lastly, the Camp David proposal would have left Israel in control over all Palestinian borders thereby allowing Israel to control not only internal movement of people and goods but international movement as well. Such a Palestinian state would have had less sovereignty and viability than the Bantustans.
     
  15. Pontiuth Pilate

    Pontiuth Pilate Republican Jesus!

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    You don't know that the Arabs or Jews will hold a grudge, because peace has never been obtained, ever.

    Behaviors apparent in personal relationships are reflected by what we call the "national character".

    Disregarding their culture, if the Arabs and Jews did hold a grudge, then there would obviously be no use trying to settle this dispute. So its better to assume they won't hold one

    IMHO that is why outside intervention is needed. Despite all the bull**** rhetoric neither side will back down, ever. It's high time for this problem to be solved by the world. And Israel can't complain - the most powerful nation on Earth is its chief backer.
     
  16. Capulet

    Capulet RESTART

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    You're right, it is time for new leadership, but on both sides. Sharon has a grudge aganist Arafat from Lebanon, and likewise Arafat has a grudge against Sharon. These old guys should go to a nursing home and let the young people take over :)
     
  17. Capulet

    Capulet RESTART

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    :O I believe that outside intervention is needed too. Too bad the United States is always vetoing any resolutions that is proposed about international intervention.
     
  18. Pontiuth Pilate

    Pontiuth Pilate Republican Jesus!

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    Mostly because the only solution endorsed by the Arab world is "Peacefully destroy Israel", either directly or by removing their ability to defend themselves again invasion by Arab states.

    And as many have noted, the Arabs aren't exactly looking after their Palestinian brothers either :rolleyes:

    No, the UN is not the solution. We need some sort of special council that equally represents Israeli and Palestinian interests, but is overseen and moderated by international organizations [USA&NATO, EU, Arab League, etc]
     
  19. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

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    Not to sound callous, but what I fail to understand is why the Palestinians expect a perfectly fair peace settlement when they are losing the war very badly. It just doesn't work that way, unfortunately.

    Also, I imagine that most people on both sides would prefer to live in peace. Maybe it is just the pride of the governments and the more radical factions that is causing the problem.

    I certainly don't think the blame can be placed on the Israeli people for wanting security, nor on the Palestinian people for wanting a homeland. I honestly think that the only way an acceptable peace treaty will be signed is if a cease fire holds for many years while it is negotiated. The Israelis are not going to give in at all while suicide bombings continue to be prevalent in their daily lives. Were they to stop, the hawkish factions of the Israeli government would likely lose their power, at which point a more equal peace deal could be worked out. As it stands, the Palestinians are a major security risk, and the fear these attacks create only allows the 'hawks' to stay in power.
     
  20. Capulet

    Capulet RESTART

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    Losing the war very badly? Hah. If the Palestinians were losing "the war" badly, then I think that they'd show signs of frustration or desperation. But the suicide bombings go on, and every time theres another assassination, the extremist groups gain new members. The Israelis have to face the fact that in 20 years, the Palestinians will significantly outnumber them and that they can never defeat the Palestinians, and the other way around. With the Palestinian birth rate booming, I think that unless Israel acceps a peace plan with the Palestinians soon, they will have to end up with a one-state solution with an Arab majority.
     

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