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Do Palastinians get the vote?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by zulu9812, Jan 11, 2004.

  1. G-Man

    G-Man A One Man's War

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    1. So why did they reject the peace deal? Why did they break the peace process? Why did they start the campaign of terrorism known as the intifada? Why don't the Palestinian majority resent the use of terrorism, despite the fact that terrorism is both keeping away any peace and causing Israel to treat them badly?

    2. With all due respect to your guarentee, I don't consider it to be a base for such a move. Not when organizations like the hamas, PIJ, etc, say otherwise, when terrorism started long before the occupation and when the hizzbalah had already shown how much terrorists respect borders.

    3. Israel only fights those who support terrorism. Houses aren't destroyed to make room for settlments. They're destroyed when terrorists use them.

    4. No, the Palestinian state was prevented by the Palestinians who refused to accept the UN resolution in 1947 and instead started a war against Israel, and by the Palestinians who refused Israel's peace proposals and turned to terrorism, hoping to force Israel to do as they wish. BTW Israelis live here now. I think we have a better claim than the Palestinian immigrants who live in arab countries, who are the main reason why the Palestinian leadership can't accept a peace deal.
     
  2. r4ge

    r4ge Chieftain

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    Sharon proposal to destroy or dissmantle "terrorist organizations" such as Hamas is unrealistic. Hamas for instance is an organization with many branches and tasks. For the PA(Palestinian Authority) to dissmantle an organization which has one third of the palestinian population as members would mean to wage a civil war.

    Sharon knows that such decisions are imposible, and therefore to impose such condition prior to any peace negotiations, denies the possibility of a peace negotiation in itself.

    And as Arafat strugles to mantain his power and authority, the Wall which purpose is to contain the terrorist attack is built across dividing the palestinian lands more than ever before.
    Damn the vicious circle.
     
  3. Leha

    Leha ooseepoosee

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    Excuse me , but what peace can be negotiated if one third of population ( your words ) doesn't want it ?
    And this is not what mr.Sharon wants , it is a condition stated in " Road Map " .
    PA has everything it needs to hush terrorists. It just don't want to .
     
  4. r4ge

    r4ge Chieftain

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    I agree they do have more fire power than Hamas, though that is not the problem. I doubt Hamas nor the PA will want to kill their own people to attain peace offer which cannot be guaranteed by any third party power.
    The road map consists of 3 main phases.... in the first phase the palestinians will have to dissmantle their terrorist organizations, and then only will Israel start to dismantle there settlements and retreat from occupied areas. What guarantee is there that Israel will accomplish this task?

    The Israel could rightly argue... in the case that the dissmantling of terrorist organization were in the 2nd phase, that the pa would comlete this task.
    The Road map is flawed
     
  5. r4ge

    r4ge Chieftain

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    One cannot solve the this conflict with a peace process, one can only achieve it with a 1 step peace agreement.
     
  6. G-Man

    G-Man A One Man's War

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    The hamas is thought to have no more than 800 active members. The PA has fought the hamas before and it can do it again.


    There's no peace to be negotiated without the PA fighting the hamas.


    I don't see how the fence stands in the way for Arafat to fight against terrorism. If anything it'll help him as his forces will maintain their mobility while the terrorists will lose it.


    They have every guarentee because Israel had removed settlments already in prior peace agreements. The Palestinians are the ones who broke the Oslo agreement and as such they're the side which needs to regain the trust of its partners. And finally, unlike terrorists, settlments don't physicaly hurt anyone, which makes them a 2nd importance goal. The basic requirement for a fair peace process is that there'll be a cease fire. First this needs to be achieved, than anything else can be done through negotiations.
     
  7. r4ge

    r4ge Chieftain

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    "prior to the September 1993 Israeli- Palestinian agreement, support for Hamas was estimated at 20- 40 percent in the West Bank and 60-80 percent in Gaza. Today, direct support for Hamas is estimated at 15-25 percent**** of the total population with varying degrees of sympathy among many more." (
    mohttp://www.jewishpost.com/jp0203/jpn0303.htm)
    Alright less than one third though certainly much more than 800.
    True this iwas posted in 1996, thoguh i doubt it's membership has fallen since.
     
  8. Leha

    Leha ooseepoosee

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    Wow , I didn't know about this figures . Strange ....
    I think there's something exaggerated here . May be people supporting them in any possible way , even those who march with them on demonstrations count ?
    I'm sure that number of activists of hamas is much smaller .
     
  9. r4ge

    r4ge Chieftain

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    "I don't see how the fence stands in the way for Arafat to fight against terrorism. If anything it'll help him as his forces will maintain their mobility while the terrorists will lose it."

    I would rather see it as a defeat of the palestinian population as a whole. The security fence sustains ever more clearly that Israel will have the last word in drawing the borders of the palestinian state. It shows how powerless both Yassir Arafat and Hamas are in confronting the Israeli political dominance. It highlights the resentment many palestinian are facing. Sharons policy may have had good intentions (to contain Palestinian terrorists), though in the long run, those contained in their unatural borders will stand up for their rights.
     
  10. Capulet

    Capulet RESTART

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    1. Like I said, if the Palestinians agreed to the deal, they would have been split into 4 parts, and if you wanted to cross one of them you would have to go through Israel. The intifada was began after Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount and brought 4000 Israeli Soldiers with him.The they restricted Muslims from going there and during protest 4 people were killed. The Palestinians and almost everyone else recognize the anniversary of the Intifada on Sept. 28, 2000. In The Palestinians will continue to use terrorism to call attention to their dillema. The Palestinians are pratically undefeatable. Unlike Israelis, they WANT to die so they can become martyrs. Even if the Israelis destroy all of Hamas' leadership, another young generation is willing to step up and take their place, and then another. This war will never end unless both sides agree on something.

    2. Are you saying that Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad existed before 1967? They didn't. Hezbollah was created after the 1981 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, and they did a nice job of getting Israel out I believe :cool:

    3. Then why didn't they destroy the Israeli terrorist Baruch Goldstein’s house?

    4. "BTW" Palestinians/Arabs live in Palestine/Israel too. No, you do not have a better claim than the Palestinians, who have lived in Palestine alot longer than the Israelis have. Just because they were exiled 5000 years ago and sporadically returned there. Oh well, in a decade or two, the Palestinians will have a bigger population than the Israelis and then they will be forced to sign an agreement and there will be no walls stopping them.
     
  11. Capulet

    Capulet RESTART

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    1. Then why are there so many people at the funerals of Hamas members? The Palestinian authority cannot have a stable security force unless Israel stops attacking its infrastructure - which it has. When Israel barricaded Arafat, they destroyed the whole PA security force in the process.

    2. And risk civil war? They both have a common enemy, Israel, so why should they fight each other?

    3. The fence is an obstacle to peace, not an obstacle to terrorism. Even if it does stop most terrorists from getting inside Israel, its not going to stop Palestinians from attacking Israeli soldiers. The fence is a land grab to force a defined border on the Palestinians, cutting the West Bank in half and giving more land to the settlers.

    4. Uhhh I'm pretty sure Israel has built alot more settlements than its dismantled. The only thing they've dismantled lately is unused outposts.
     
  12. Pontiuth Pilate

    Pontiuth Pilate Republican Jesus!

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    I am in no way apologizing for Palestinian terrorism, which is inexcusable no matter what the circumstances, but look at it from their point of view.

    They made a good-faith attempt at a peace deal - for once! - and the best Israel would offer them was a set of Palestinian Bantustans which would leave them totally at the mercy of Israel and with only nominal independence. Their leaders, including Yassir Arafat, are totally powerless. Israeli troops invade what they see as Palestinian lands at will and demolish what they see as Palestinian property with impunity. And now Ariel Sharon is building a wall, as they see it just to point out the fact that Israel is still totally in control.

    Is it any wonder that they resort to terrorism? [But that still doesn't justify it - it just explains it.]
     
  13. Benderino

    Benderino Loyal American Democrat

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    Actually, that is false. To believe Palestinian spokesmen, the violence was caused by the desecration of a Muslim holy place – Haram al-Sharif (the Temple Mount) – by Likud leader Ariel Sharon and the “thousands of Israeli soldiers” who accompanied him. The violence was carried out through unprovoked attacks by Israeli forces, which invaded Palestinian-controlled territories and “massacred” defenseless Palestinian civilians, who merely threw stones in self-defense. The only way to stop the violence, then, was for Israel to cease fire and remove its troops from the Palestinian areas.

    The truth is dramatically different.

    Imad Faluji, the Palestinian Authority Communications Minister, admitted months after Sharon's visit that the violence had been planned in July, far in advance of Sharon's "provocation." "It [the uprising] had been planned since Chairman Arafat's return from Camp David, when he turned the tables on the former U.S. president and rejected the American conditions." The Mitchell Repot said in May of 2001, “The Sharon visit did not cause the ‘Al-Aksa Intifada.’”

    The violence started before Sharon's September 28, 2000, visit to the Temple Mount. The day before, for example, an Israeli soldier was killed at the Netzarim Junction. The next day in the West Bank city of Kalkilya, a Palestinian police officer working with Israeli police on a joint patrol opened fire and killed his Israeli counterpart.

    Official Palestinian Authority media exhorted the Palestinians to violence. On September 29, the Voice of Palestine, the PA's official radio station sent out calls "to all Palestinians to come and defend the al-Aksa mosque." The PA closed its schools and bused Palestinian students to the Temple Mount to participate in the organized riots.

    Just prior to Rosh Hashanah (September 30), the Jewish New Year, when hundreds of Israelis were worshipping at the Western Wall, thousands of Arabs began throwing bricks and rocks at Israeli police and Jewish worshippers. Rioting then spread to towns and villages throughout Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

    Internal Security Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami (I think) permitted Sharon to go to the Temple Mount – Judaism’s holiest place – only after calling Palestinian security chief Jabril Rajoub and receiving his assurance that if Sharon did not enter the mosques, no problems would arise. The need to protect Sharon arose when Rajoub later said that the Palestinian police would do nothing to prevent violence during the visit.

    Sharon did not attempt to enter any mosques and his 34 minute visit to the Temple Mount was conducted during normal hours when the area is open to tourists. Palestinian youths—eventually numbering around 1,500—shouted slogans in an attempt to inflame the situation. Some 1,500 Israeli police were present at the scene to forestall violence.

    There were limited disturbances during Sharon's visit, mostly involving stone throwing. During the remainder of the day, outbreaks of stone throwing continued on the Temple Mount and in the vicinity, leaving 28 Israeli policemen injured, three of whom were hospitalized. There are no accounts of Palestinian injuries on that day. Significant and orchestrated violence was initiated by Palestinians the following day following Friday prayers.

    “It is not a mistake that the Koran warns us of the hatred of the Jews and put them at the top of the list of the enemies of Islam. Today the Jews recruit the world against the Muslims and use all kinds of weapons. They are plundering the dearest place to the Muslims, after Mecca and Medina and threaten the place the Muslims have faced at first when they prayed and the third holiest city after Mecca and Medina. They want to erect their temple on that place....The Muslims are ready to sacrifice their lives and blood to protect the Islamic nature of Jerusalem and El Aksa!”—Sheikh Hian Al-Adrisi, Excerpt of address in the al-Aksa mosque September 29, 2000

    The real desecration of holy places was perpetrated by Palestinians, not Israelis. In October 2000, Palestinian mobs destroyed a Jewish shrine in Nablus – Joseph’s Tomb – tearing up and burning Jewish prayer books. They stoned worshipers at the Western Wall, and attacked Rachel’s Tomb in Bethlehem with firebombs and automatic weapons. Of course, you have chosen to ignore this. :rolleyes:

    None of the violent attacks were initiated by Israeli security forces, which in all cases responded to Palestinian violence that went well beyond stone throwing. It included massive attacks with automatic weapons and the lynching of Israeli soldiers. Most armed attackers were members of the Tanzim – Arafat’s own militia.

    Since all attacks were initiated by Palestinians under Arafat’s orders, only Arafat has the power to end the violence. Israel and the United States have repeatedly called on him to do so and renew the peace process.

    “The issues of Jerusalem, the refugees and sovereignty are one and will be finalized on the ground and not in negotiations. At this point it is important to prepare Palestinian society for the challenge of the next step because we will inevitably find ourselves in a violent confrontation with Israel in order to create new facts on the ground. ... I believe that the situation in the future will be more violent than the Intifada.”--Abu-Ali Mustafa of the Palestinian Authority, July 23, 2000
     
  14. Capulet

    Capulet RESTART

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    Now where did you get your information that the Intifada was planned before Sharon visited the Temple Mount? Some Israeli propaganda site? There is no proof of that, and there is obviously proof that it was Sharon who started it because thats what almost every Palestinian who is involved in the Intifada says.

    Also, I have trouble believing that the Palestinians would intentionally attack Rachel's Tomb itself. The Palestinians view it as holy too, they call it "Bilal Ibn Rabah Mosque." You said that Sharon was allowed on the temple mount by the Palestinian security chief. Did the Palestinian security chief also allow for Palestinian to be barred from the site when Sharon was visiting, even though prayer was going on? Did the Palestinian security chief also allow four Palestinians to be killed? You say that Arafat has the power to stop the violence, when until the Israelis attacked him, he condemned the attacks in Arabic and English! I'm sure Arafat is willing to stop the terrorists when the Israelis are talking about assasinating him in their newspapers. That is just not logical.

    "Official Palestinian Authority media exhorted the Palestinians to violence. On September 29, the Voice of Palestine, the PA's official radio station sent out calls "to all Palestinians to come and defend the al-Aksa mosque." The PA closed its schools and bused Palestinian students to the Temple Mount to participate in the organized riots." Uhhh whats wrong with that? Ariel Sharon had brought 4000 soldiers with him to the Temple Mount, and to the Palestnians that seemed like a takeover. Again, I would like to question your source for that. How did the Palestinians stone the worshippers at the Western Wall when it is under Israel security 24/7?? The people who did that were probably shot right away, duty with an Israel one. Queston for you. What the HELL is an Israel police officer doing in Palestine? Shouldn't he be in Israel?
    You said that the intifada (struggle) didn't start on the 28th. That might be true, but THE Intifada was declared on the 28th. The Palestinians have been waging a intifada/struggle against the Israels since 1967. You are acting like the Palestinians are the only ones who attack other people at their holy sites, yet you forget Hebron settler Baruch Goldstein who killed 29 Palestinians,
    wounded over 100, at prayer services in a Hebron mosque. Every day Settlers are attacking Palestinian citizens and other human rights workers. Read this article too:

    Hebron settlers attack police, bar muezzins from Tomb
    By Arnon Regular and Baruch Kra
    Ha'aretz
    14, October 2002

    Tensions are running even higher than usual in Hebron this week after police investigating complaints about settler violence against Palestinian residents of the town were attacked by settlers.

    Complaints made to the police include that settlers are forcibly preventing the muezzin at the Tomb of the Patriarchs from calling the faithful to prayers; that on Saturday night settlers invaded the Waqf offices, vandalizing the equipment and making a bonfire out of the documents they found in the office, including deeds to all the Waqf property in the city; and that settlers broke into a local school, spray-painting the walls with "Death to the Arabs" slogans and painting the walls with stars of David.

    Yesterday morning, when police arrived at the Jewish enclave in the heart of the city's old quarter, they were assaulted by settlers, with oil paint thrown at them from a nearby building. One officer was hospitalized with paint in his eyes and ears.

    Local TV stations in Hebron have in recent weeks been broadcasting images of the Tomb of the Patriarchs' muezzin being prevented from calling the faithful to prayer in the morning, afternoon and evening. Compounding the tensions were the Saturday night vandalism raids.

    The incursion into the Waqf offices took place when settlers broke through a wall in a property they had already captured from its Arab inhabitants, into the Waqf office. As the Islamic Trust in the town, the Waqf holds the deeds to much of the property in the city.

    The settlers removed the documents from the office, and made a bonfire of them in the courtyard. Palestinians trying to call the police to complain said they were unable to reach anyone at the police station to report on the incident until the next day.

    "The settlers are doing everything they can to push the Palestinians to the wall and we told the army and the police that `today they attack us, tomorrow they'll attack you,'" said Sheikh Salah Natshe, a member of the Hebron Islamic Trust.

    The incidents involving the settlers and the muezzin, however, could spark an outbreak of Palestinian violence in Hebron.

    During the last three weeks, settlers have been preventing the muezzins' access to the mosque inside the Tomb of the Patriarchs, thereby preventing the traditional calls to the faithful to come to prayer. Local TV broadcasts showing this are being picked up by Hamas and Islamic Jihad TV stations and Web sites, and used as examples of how local residents in Hebron suffer at the hands of the settlers.

    Hebron's Palestinian Authority Governor Arif Aljabari has issued a statement condemning the interference at the mosque, and calling on the government to prevent the incidents, which he warns could "ignite the city." The army has so far refrained from comment on the matter.

    So don't say that Palestinians are the only ones attacking people at tombs - the Israelis are trying too. Some fanatics have also repeatedly tried to burn down the Al-Aqsa mosque so they can build a "Temple" like one that existed 5000 years ago
    :rolleyes:
     
  15. Mr. Cackle

    Mr. Cackle Cacklin' since '95

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    Err, how does communism have ANYTHING to do with Hamas and the like? Communism = atheism. Hamas = religious fanatacism. Don't try and use the Palestinian crisis in your blatant effort to mindlessly attack communism. Save that for other threads.

    As for "the Jews rightfully taking their land back," should the UN also grant the Native American tribes all lands west of the Mississippi? They were driven out not 5000 years ago but rather 150 years ago! Should the Xhosa people reclaim South Africa? What about Aboriginies? The Mayans? The point is, yes, what happened to the aforementioned peoples was horrible and we should try and mend our ways, but the appropriation of land to a people who did not control it for many THOUSANDS of years is NOT the answer. We should be finding ways to fuse two different cultures together. For example, the native tribes in America are exempt from certain laws and have reservations. Not the best way, true, but it's a start and it doesn't create violence.

    Also leha --

    If you are anti-communist, then why even support the founding of Israel? Is that not "stealing" from people who "worked hard"?? If anything, a true capitalist supporter would want those who did the most work in Palestine to retain it. But then again, we no longer have "capitalists" in the true sense of the word anymore, just imperialists and nationalists.
     
  16. IceBlaZe

    IceBlaZe Atheist Proselytizer

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    If Palestinians as a group are all Arabs living in the territory included in the former British Mandate of Palestine, then no. They do not get to vote in Israeli elections.
    Palestinians of that group (that I defined above) can be divided to further sub-groups:
    1. Palestinians who inhabit the territory of Israel, since 1949.
    Basically, Israel declared independence, was declared war upon, won the war, expanded the territory beneath that that was given to it by the UN Resolution and reached the "Green Line", which is actually all territory controlled by Israel before the 1967 war.
    During those wars some Palestinians escaped those territories, some were expelled, and since it is irrelevant to the actual question I won't get to that. The Palestinians that did stay under Israeli control lived for a certain period under Martial Law (for understandable reasons), and with the end of that period they gained full Israeli citizenship, hence they are eligible to vote in Israeli elections. The "Territory of Israel" is more than just the territory explained above - it also includes the Golan Heights. It does not include the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Why? Israel officialy annexed the Golan Heights, but it didn't annex the WB and GS. Which brings us to group number 2...

    2. Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Those are Palestinians that lived in the West Bank or Gaza Strip, or arrived there as a result of the wars mentioned before. For a long period (1967-1993) they had no rights, just an occupied people under the control of Israel. Israel signed peace with Egypt, Jordan, Intifada Broke (not necessarily in that order), and eventually agreemented were signed, the "Oslo" agreements, and those created the "PA" - Palestinian authority, which is a quasi-government incharge of most Palestinian affairs (education, economy etc), all of course very limited since the PA doesn't have sovereign territory, and still controlled, for the most part, by Israel. The Territory of the PA divides into A, B and C territories, which are basically steps inside the Oslo Agreements for different levels of control by the PA of the Palestinian territory. Under the situation today they mean little. However, all Palestinians belonging to this group have voting rights for the PA, regardless to the location of their living inside these territories.

    3. Palestinians living in Jordan. Jordan is an independent state, created by Britain circa 1922. Palestinians living there are Jordanian citizens. They don't "vote", at least I think they don't, since it is a hashemite kingdom.
     
  17. G-Man

    G-Man A One Man's War

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    This is incorrect.


    This is nonsense. The intifada started before Sharon came to the temple mount, it was admitted by the PA leadership that it was planned months ago, Sharon didn't bring with him 4000 soldiers and they didn't restrict muslims from visiting the temple mount.


    Like who? All official reports by international bodies say that the intifada did NOT start because of Sharon visit. These documents were accepted by the Palestinian Authority.


    The Palestinians don't need to be defeated by Israel. They do it to themselves better than Israel ever could.


    The fatah existed years before the 1967 war, just as were the mujahidin and the other terrorist organizations who were active since the beggining of the 20th century. And Hezbollah have shown what happens when Israel withdraws from somewhere without an agreement - the terrorists take over and continue with their attacks.


    Because the policy was started eight years later.


    I don't see how they'll force us. Arabs should've learned by now that there's very little strengh in numbers.
     
  18. Pontiuth Pilate

    Pontiuth Pilate Republican Jesus!

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    there is obviously proof that it was Sharon who started it because thats what almost every Palestinian who is involved in the Intifada says.


    And they obviously know exactly what's going on? :rolleyes:
     
  19. Benderino

    Benderino Loyal American Democrat

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    Is the Mitchell Report an Israeli propaganda site? The quotes are all real, as well. And why can't you believe that the Palestinians would attack the Tomb? Why is that so unbelievable, but this other stuff isn't? You'll also notice I said no Palestinian was killed on there, and only 1,500 guards were brought, not 4,000.
     
  20. G-Man

    G-Man A One Man's War

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    There are many people because they're Hamas supporters. They're not Hamas members. Also, the Palestinian security forces are nearly undamaged. They weren't involved in any serious fighting with anyone for quite a few years. A force of thousands of armed people doesn't just disappear


    Because if they won't fight the Hamas they'll never have peace and they'll innevitably continue to live in the horrible situation they've forced themselves into.


    I don't see how the terrorists will attack the soldiers. And the fence is a legitimate security measure. It's built based on demography, not geography.


    The only peace we've been getting lately is achieved by the IDF, not the Palestinians.
     

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