Do tell the history behind the Holy Land

[Ouchgeddon]

I'm interested in the true, non-judgemental and non-biased to either side history of modern Israel...Starting from the events that lead to its establishment after WW2, the wars and attacks thereafter, andanything else relevant. Can anyone help me with this, info or links? You gotta know it all, every side of the story, before taking sides or making judgements (or not).

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Try this:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/modsbook54.html

or this:

http://www.mideastweb.org/BriefHistory.htm

They may help, but history on the web is often incorrect, so be careful.

 

[G-Man]

Israel was established by zionist orgenizations (IF you wanna know more about zionism - ask). After a long fight, first against the turks and then against the British, in 1947 the British turned to the UN and asked them to split the country to the jews and the arabs because they no longer wanna control it. The jews got the northern coast, the galili and the desert. The arabs got what's left except Jerusalem that was supposed to be an international city. The arabs demanded all the country and started a war on Israel. The Israelis were the underdogs in numbers, equipment and trainings but were able to stop the advancing arabs using a lot of sacrifice a lot of luck. Infact if the Egyptians weren't so afraid of the IAF (That had 4 fighter aircrafts, non of them jet proppeled and one of them crashed in the first attack they made) they easy would've taken over Tel Aviv. Eventually when the war ended Israel had what to today is known as the 1967 borders. During the war some Palestinians were evacuated from their homes as the IDF didn't have the man pwer nor the time to search who of them is fighting them and who isn't, and so anyone that was suspected was evacuated. Even more Palestinians ran away to arab countries that promised them they'll help them get the entire country.
In 1956 Egypt nationalized the Suez canal. Israel, Britain and France attacked them. The British and the French took over the canal while Israel took over Sinai. A short time afterwards it was evacuated and returned to Egypt. Another important thing about this war - Israel got a nuclear reactor from France.
In 1967 the arab countries forced Israel to start a war by putting large numbers of troops near the Israeli border and forcing Israel to draft all it's people, and since it lasted several weeks Israel was on the break of a financial collapse and therefore had to start the war. The IAF destroyed the arab air forces while on the ground and the IDF took over Sinai, Gaza, the west bank and the Golan heights. The UN called the Israel capture of these areas occupation and demanded Israel will withdraw. Israel, that has withdrawed in 56 from Sinai, didn't agree to withdraw without the Arabs making peace with Israel.
In 1973 Egypt and Syria made a surprise attack on Israel in yom kipur, the holliest day on the jewish callender. Due to that, most Israeli soldiers were allowed to go to their homes. The Egyptians and Syrians were able to take over parts of Sinai and the Golan but then Israeli forces stopped them and started a counter attack. Israel took over areas in the west bank of the Suez canal and got very close to Damascus. When a cease fire was signed Israel withdrew from the areas in Syria that were taken over during the war.
In the late 1970s Israel withdrew from Sinai in return to a peace agreement with Egypt. The Egyptians didn't want the Gaza strip back and so it remained Israeli.
In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon in a response to a large number of terrorist attacks commited using infrastracture there. Arafat and his fellow leaders of the Palestinian terrorists were forced to leave Beirut. Israel remained in Lebanon fighting other terrorists that wer there, especially the Hizzbalah. In the year 2000 Israel withdrew from the parts of Lebanon it still controlled.
During the early 1990s Yitzhak Rabin, the Israeli prime minister, signed peace agreements with Jordan and with the Palestinians. The agreement with the Palestinians said the Palestinians will hault all attacks on Israelis and in return Israel will give them control about Palestinian cities in the west bank and Gaza and will negotiate with them about more land in the future.
In 2000 Barak offered Arafat a final agreement. Arafat then ordered to start the intifada. (Some might say it's an opinion but it has been proven Arafat directly ordered it). And there we are today.

 

[Ozz]

G-man

I think the request was for a non-judgemental and non-biased
account. I think you left some important facts out.

 

[Apollo]

Originally posted by Ozz
G-man

I think the request was for a non-judgemental and non-biased
account. I think you left some important facts out.

Well, could you add them in? I can't think of anything off the top of my head that he left out. Ouchgeddon did say

You gotta know it all, every side of the story, before taking sides or making judgements (or not).

So maybe you could add the opposing side to G-man's statements. (and this will be a different conversation than the sticky at the top because it's about the past, not the future.)

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Ozz
G-man

I think the request was for a non-judgemental and non-biased
account. I think you left some important facts out.

I don't think I left anything important out. Could you please specify?

 

[Pellaken]

Israel was established by zionist orgenizations (IF you wanna know more about zionism - ask). After a long fight, first against the turks and then against the British, in 1947 the British turned to the UN and asked them to split the country to the jews and the arabs because they no longer wanna control it. The jews got the northern coast, the galili and the desert. The arabs got what's left except Jerusalem that was supposed to be an international city. The arabs demanded all the country and started a war on Israel. The Israelis were the underdogs in numbers, equipment and trainings but were able to stop the advancing arabs using a lot of sacrifice a lot of luck. Infact if the Egyptians weren't so afraid of the IAF (That had 4 fighter aircrafts, non of them jet proppeled and one of them crashed in the first attack they made) they easy would've taken over Tel Aviv. Eventually when the war ended Israel had what to today is known as the 1967 borders. During the war some Palestinians were evacuated from their homes as the IDF didn't have the man pwer nor the time to search who of them is fighting them and who isn't, and so anyone that was suspected was evacuated. Even more Palestinians ran away to arab countries that promised them they'll help them get the entire country.
In 1956 Egypt nationalized the Suez canal. Israel, Britain and France attacked them. The British and the French took over the canal while Israel took over Sinai. A short time afterwards it was evacuated and returned to Egypt.
>>>although the israeli government was a little unwilling, and egypt feared this would not be done. it was only done after pressure from the worlds 2 superpowers<<<
Another important thing about this war - Israel got a nuclear reactor from France.
In 1967 the arab countries forced Israel to start a war by putting large numbers of troops near the Israeli border and forcing Israel to draft all it's people, >>>Israel wastent forced. it had a choice, it could have choose to loose. watch your words carefully<<< and since it lasted several weeks Israel was on the break of a financial collapse and therefore had to start the war.>>>HAD to? again, choices... your getting more biased<<< The IAF destroyed the arab air forces while on the ground and the IDF took over Sinai, Gaza, the west bank and the Golan heights. The UN called the Israel capture of these areas occupation and demanded Israel will withdraw. Israel, that has withdrawed in 56 from Sinai, didn't agree to withdraw without the Arabs making peace with Israel. >>>they did all this within 6 days<<<
In 1973 Egypt and Syria made a surprise attack on Israel in yom kipur, the holliest day on the jewish callender. Due to that, most Israeli soldiers were allowed to go to their homes. The Egyptians and Syrians were able to take over parts of Sinai and the Golan but then Israeli forces stopped them and started a counter attack. Israel took over areas in the west bank of the Suez canal and got very close to Damascus. When a cease fire was signed Israel withdrew from the areas in Syria that were taken over during the war.
In the late 1970s Israel withdrew from Sinai in return to a peace agreement with Egypt. The Egyptians didn't want the Gaza strip back and so it remained Israeli. >>>it had been annexed in 1967, why would they<<<
In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon in a response to a large number of terrorist attacks commited using infrastracture there. Arafat and his fellow leaders of the Palestinian terrorists were forced to leave Beirut. Israel remained in Lebanon fighting other terrorists that wer there, especially the Hizzbalah. In the year 2000 Israel withdrew from the parts of Lebanon it still controlled.
During the early 1990s Yitzhak Rabin, the Israeli prime minister, signed peace agreements with Jordan and with the Palestinians. The agreement with the Palestinians said the Palestinians will hault all attacks on Israelis and in return Israel will give them control about Palestinian cities in the west bank and Gaza and will negotiate with them about more land in the future.
In 2000 Barak offered Arafat a final agreement. Arafat then ordered to start the intifada. >>>only after sharo's famous visit was it declared, it was not a direct result of the peace deal<<<(Some might say it's an opinion but it has been proven Arafat directly ordered it). And there we are today.


read it again, its been un-biased.

 

[Ouchgeddon]

Thanks for the history. Somehow History sucked when you were forced to learn it.
Waiting for the completely pro-Palestine side view : )

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Pellaken
>>>Israel wastent forced. it had a choice, it could have choose to loose. watch your words carefully<<<>>>HAD to? again, choices... your getting more biased<<<

Yes, Israel HAD to start the war. It's like pointing a gun at someone's head. Sure, he can refuse to what you're telling him to do, but then he'll get his head blown off. In such cases the right term will be "forced".


>>>they did all this within 6 days<<<

I don't see how this can be important.


>>>it had been annexed in 1967, why would they<<<

Untill the peace agreements Gaza was considered a part if Sinai.

>>>only after sharo's famous visit was it declared, it was not a direct result of the peace deal<<<

It was a direct result of the peace deal. Arafat addmitted it himself.

 

[JoeM]

>>Originally posted by Pellaken
>>>Israel wastent forced. it had a choice, it could have choose to loose. watch your words carefully<<<>>>HAD to? again, choices... your getting more biased<<<
>Originally posted by G-Man
>Yes, Israel HAD to start the war. It's like pointing a gun at someone's head. Sure, he can refuse to what you're telling him to do, but then he'll get his head blown off. In such cases the right term will be "forced".

Wasn't this because Russia had secretly posted aircraft and troops in the region to bolster the confidence of the muslim states?

 

[Pellaken]

the 6 day war was a strategic genius. I dont think any other country doubled its size in war with 2 larger, more populace neighbours. dont put your own country down!

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by JoeM
Wasn't this because Russia had secretly posted aircraft and troops in the region to bolster the confidence of the muslim states?

The Russian weren't very secret about it considering the fact they flew over Israel from Egypt to Jordan and from Jordan to Egypt. However, the soviets made most of their deployments after the 6 days war when Israel becamse the leading power.


"dont put your own country down!"

I didn't put down anyone. Israel was forced to go to a war economicaly as well as militarily. Israel drafted over 1 million people. Do you think that the 2.5 millions that were left in the back, with many of them elderlis or youth, could've supported such an army? Ofcourse not. Israel also couldn't cancel the drafts because it would leave the borders exposed to the arabs, that untill this war were far superior to Israel in their military power.

 

[Ozz]

Originally posted by Apollo


Well, could you add them in? I can't think of anything off the top of my head that he left out. Ouchgeddon did say So maybe you could add the opposing side to G-man's statements. (and this will be a different conversation than the sticky at the top because it's about the past, not the future.)

I thinking of how & why the British left, the Bombing of the
King David Hotel by Jewish Terrorists for example. The beginning
of Israel and how was begun in Terror. Has a history of terror and assassination (both sides) and lives with terror to this day.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Earliest jewish settlers were in palestine in the 1700's.
Terror by a few jewish organizations only started in the 1930's/1940's, and comparing it to the vast amount of palestinien terror, to the intention of palestinien terror, to the target of palestinien terror (kinder gardens, senior hotels), it is not comparable.
Israel didn't begin in terror, Israel begin in peace keeping.
Terror started when the british prevented 6 million jews from escaping hitler and when the british controlled the Israelies using curfew hours and such's, and didn't even offer Israel independency (while palestiniens were offered independency).
I don't support the action of the Israeli terror organizations, but the first, second, third and so on jewish settlers had nothing to do with terror, only a few extreme-right movements during the late 1930's/starting of the 1940's.
going from that to saying Israel was founded on terror is lying.
The british left because they had no reason to stay.
It was an empire that conquered and controlled many other ethnicities and in the end of world war 2 empires started to fall, and get small, just like the british empire.
Do you think the British should have stayed?
The bombing of the king david hotel by right-wing jewish terrorists is minor and unmentionable in G-Man's size of sum up, just like he didn't mention every single event of the arabs attacking Israel or alikes.
If G-Man decides to disinclude minor events that also includes jewish terror and not limited to british opression events or arab terror.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Ozz
I thinking of how & why the British left, the Bombing of the
King David Hotel by Jewish Terrorists for example. The beginning
of Israel and how was begun in Terror. Has a history of terror and assassination (both sides) and lives with terror to this day.

First of all I wish to say that only very few groups of jews used terrorism and they were stopped by the rest of the jews. The other jewish groups were fighting military targets such as army bases, soldiers, etc and only within Israel. Also it's important to say that Israel stopped all acts of fighting against the British once they got a country and that once that appened no militia groups but the army were allowed while the Palestinians have their authority for several years yet they still attack Israel and still allow groups such as the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad to exist along side with the different wings of Arafat's fatah.

I don't see why you think it's so important but very well:
The British took over Israel after WWI. At the time the jewish population was growing and the arabs used their control over oil to force the British to restrict jews from coming to Israel. At the same time arabs started attacking jewish towns and in return jews founded several armed groups that were initialy used in order to protect jewish towns and villages from arab riots. These groups were at first cooporating with the British. Most of these groups were a part of the Hagana ("defence", left wing. Only patroled areas) or the Etzel ("Zionist fighting orgenization", right wing. Attacked arab forts and ammo concentrations as well as defencding jews. They also commited attacks against the British army when they forced jews to cypros or to europe). During WWII the Hagana and the Etzel valenteered to help the British against the Nazis and to reduce their fight against the white book (where the anti-immigration laws were published) to diplomatic efforts alone, or as Ben Gurion said: "We must fight the war as if there's no white book, and fight the white book as if there was no war". A group of the Etzel withdrew saying they will not support the British who force jews immigrants to return to europe where they were killed by the nazis. They were called the Lehi ("Jewish freedom fighters". Also known as the Stern gang). They fought any British in the area, including sevearl bombings and the assasination of a British high official that came to the area. After that assasination David Ben Gurion, the leader of the Hagana, arrested all members of the Lehi and turned them over to the British. Those who the British had proofs against were hanged. The rest were jailed. After the war the Hagana and the Etzel turned against the British seeing the great loss of life the British restrictions caused and that despite their support for the British efforts the British still didn't allow jews into the country. The orgenizations focused on bringing illigal jews immigrants and in fighting the British army that was stationed in Israel, as well as fighting the Palestinians who also orgenized in their own groups dedicated to eliminate the jewish populations. The British understood they don't get anything from the colony but loose a lot of forces and money intrying to keep it and so in 1947 they turned to the UN and asking them to decide what will happen to the country as they no longer want it.

 

[Ozz]

G-man

"The bombing of the king david hotel by right-wing jewish terrorists is minor and unmentionable in G-Man's size of sum up, just like he didn't mention every single event of the arabs attacking Israel or alikes."

If so minor, how come I know of it 50 years later and half a
world away. I am not a historian, it is unforgotten in the west.

Big Things Grow from small beginngs, and people look to history
for excuses for their acts of horror. They did this to us in 1947, or
1967 or 2000 BC so we'll do something even worse to them today. just like school yard kids.

I think the request was for a non-judgemental and non-biased
account. I think you left some important facts out, the early years
are important once you know them.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Ozz
If so minor, how come I know of it 50 years later and half a
world away. I am not a historian, it is unforgotten in the west.

Big Things Grow from small beginngs, and people look to history
for excuses for their acts of horror. They did this to us in 1947, or
1967 or 2000 BC so we'll do something even worse to them today. just like school yard kids.

I think the request was for a non-judgemental and non-biased
account. I think you left some important facts out, the early years
are important once you know them.

I hardly think the bombing was more important then the events of 1937-36 or the Tel Hay fight. I don't see how talkinh of specific cases is so important here. I can give you the history of the middle east since the unification of Egypt but I don't believe it will be helpfull for this situation.

 

[Pellaken]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Earliest jewish settlers were in palestine in the 1700's.
Terror by a few jewish organizations only started in the 1930's/1940's, and comparing it to the vast amount of palestinien terror, to the intention of palestinien terror, to the target of palestinien terror (kinder gardens, senior hotels), it is not comparable.
Israel didn't begin in terror, Israel begin in peace keeping.
Terror started when the british prevented 6 million jews from escaping hitler and when the british controlled the Israelies using curfew hours and such's, and didn't even offer Israel independency (while palestiniens were offered independency).
I don't support the action of the Israeli terror organizations, but the first, second, third and so on jewish settlers had nothing to do with terror, only a few extreme-right movements during the late 1930's/starting of the 1940's.
going from that to saying Israel was founded on terror is lying.
The british left because they had no reason to stay.
It was an empire that conquered and controlled many other ethnicities and in the end of world war 2 empires started to fall, and get small, just like the british empire.
Do you think the British should have stayed?
The bombing of the king david hotel by right-wing jewish terrorists is minor and unmentionable in G-Man's size of sum up, just like he didn't mention every single event of the arabs attacking Israel or alikes.
If G-Man decides to disinclude minor events that also includes jewish terror and not limited to british opression events or arab terror.

wow, how biased...

here, let me right a muslim biased history:

we were here, then them jews started coming cause thier wrong god told them that this was "thier land" The british started letting them in, and dident stop them. they even bombed thier own places to kick the biritsh out. they were unwilling to live in palistine, and demanded a nation, and did so with military terror. they still do so to today!

 

[Ram Michaeli]

You know why Palestine is called like that? Because after the great Jewish rebellion against the romans at the late first hundred, the Romans had beaten the Jews, and changed the name of the region - then Judea - to Palestine, after the name of the people from the Bible who fought against the Jews, the Romans did this to make the Jews less connected to this region.

 

[allhailIndia]

AS I see it for nearly 2000 years, the Jews were nomads, they were spread all over the world, hated, ridiculed, and generally made to feel like dirt. When at last they get a nation of their own, after having suffered a terrible Holocaust, people want to take their land away from them again.

Hamas, Hezballah, Al Aqsa care 2 hoots for Palestinians, their concern is for the destruction and totla annihilation of Israel and all Jews

:ak47:

Does the world expect the Israelis to sit back and wait for the suicide bombers, no way . They will go after them and make them pay for every casualty. Only when Arafat can guarantee that violence against Israel is not his top priority, only then should Israel talk to him